« Celebrated Chinese Antelope Photo Is A Fake | Main | Discussion Topic: The Case of the Missing Venison »

February 27, 2008

This page has been moved to http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/field-notes

If your browser doesn’t redirect you to the new location, please visit The Field Notes at its new location: www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/field-notes.

Discussion Topic: Carrying On Campus

Here’s the latest on a familiar topic, from The Arizona Republic:
Legislation that would allow people to carry guns on Arizona community-college or public-university campuses advanced Monday, 11 days after a gunman killed five people and himself in an Illinois university lecture hall.

Members of the Republican-led Senate Judiciary Committee passed the legislation along a party-line 4-3 vote.

Senate Bill 1214, which would allow concealed-weapons permit holders to carry a gun at community colleges and Arizona's three public universities, next heads to the Senate Rules Committee.

Your reaction?

Comments

david

Good.

NLkg

I am very much for this idea. Check out the SCCC, which is a group called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus.

Having someone else there with a gun, that is certified by law to carry it (has a permit), could have ended these fiascos right when they started, and not have had 33 people be murdered at VT by a gunman that walked the halls completely without opposition.

jstreet

I would agree with ccw holders carrying as long as they are trained.

In some states, the training is both classroom and range time. In others, it's simply send in your paperwork and a check and you get a permit.

I personally wouldn't want untrained people carrying guns on campus and expect to rely on them when a situation such as a school shooting started.

The first time a ccw holder shoots an innocent bystander, the lawyers will have a field day.

Trained carriers fine, untrained no.


ethan

Now, if we can only get this type of legislation to sweep the country by storm...

I am an unofficial member of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, and hope to see something like this passed in every state of the Union.
A while back we (SCCC) staged a silent protest, the "Empty Holster Protest," in which we proudly wore and displayed empty holsters around our campuses all day, signifying that were it legally allowed, we would be carrying already. We are planning for another EHP on April 21st through 25th. For more information follow this link:
http://www.concealedcampus.org/

But this type of thing alone won't get our aim accomplished: We need more grassroots support, and people need to contact their representatives, both at the state and federal levels, letting them know that we want to be allowed the right to legally pack iron on college campuses.

I would so rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it because of an arbitrary policy. I believe that if someone with any training and sense of responsibility had been legally packing to class at VTech, that guy would have been blown away before he had done half the damage he did. I know for sure I would've ended his spree as soon as I could pull my piece out.

Andy

Finally.

John R

I honestly and sincerely hope it works.

Bubba

Let the carrying begin!
If a student has a CHL, why should he/she be stripped of the right of self protection just because they are on a campus.
Has it already not been proven that off center shooters select educational centers BECAUSE THE STUDENTS ARE UNARMED!!!!!!?

Bubba

GREG

Im with ya Bubba. The casualties may have been reduced if a young man or woman had a weapon to defend their own and others lives.

MidnightBanjo

I work on a college campus, and all I can say is NO! Bubba, I agree with your views more often than not, and I respect you view, but we are not talking about fully formed adults here folks! We are talking about college kids...KIDS! Kids that set fire to stuff just to watch it burn, kids that drink way too much, get sick, pass out, get into fights over the opposite sex(or the same sex), and cuss out security for the tickets that they get for parking in the wrong place. Just because they are in college doesn't mean they are stable adults! Think of what that would mean for a teacher; wondering if the kid that is coming in, to talk about the grade they got, is packing. I'm not anti-2A in any way, shape or form. Just because someone is 18 or older does NOT make them a responsible adult! Granted there are some exceptions, but instead of making it OK for the kids to carry, why not the teachers or other trained personnel instead? Would that have stopped the killings of late? Who knows? Would that first teacher that the gunman visited have made a difference - only if he/she was trained, competent, and willing to use a firearm.

If you really want to keep our kids safe at school - GET INVOLVED AND STAY INVOLVED! I'll tell it to you like this - go to a party some night on your local campus, would you want a gun that's not yours there? Or, stop in during finals week - you can cut the tension with a knife - and watch as some young adult nearly has a meltdown.

Don't put this on the kids - they have enough to worry about without it. What I'm trying to get across is this - responsible, trained people should be allowed to protect themselves and others.

Like Jstreet said: "I personally wouldn't want untrained people carrying guns on campus and expect to rely on them when a situation such as a school shooting started."

As I write this - they, the very same college kids that you say should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon on campus, have set fire to another dumpster. Must go now and meet up with security and the fire dept.

jstreet

Excellent post MidnightBanjo.

It's easy to forget how college kids are basically out of control a good portion of the time. Guns and beer certainly don't mix and it would be an accident waiting to happen.

I agree that trained teachers and other campus personnel should carry to hopefully help stop the craziness should it occur.

Jim

Bubba

MN Banjo

While I agree that not all college students are mentally capable of safely carrying a concealed weapon. NOT ALL students are that immature. If a student has a CHL and is mature enough to carry such, why should THAT student be stripped of the right to protect themselves?
You say you are often on a campus!
How many adults attend the college!?
We're both Okies MN Banjo, but you'll never convince me that just ONE armed student couldn't have saved lives at either VT or NIU!!

Bubba

MidnightBanjo

Bubba, I'm not saying that at all. I agree with you, people should have the right to protect themselves and you are correct, not all students are that immature. I'll ever go a step farther and say that it's definitely a minority of the students that make up most of the trouble on campus. Justly, it would be that small number of students that would be cause for concern. My question would be, How would you know the difference on the CCW exam?

While true one student could have made a difference, my point is that the campus community would be better served if that responsibility were put in the hands of trained adults. Would not the outcome have been different if a teacher had been armed? Wouldn't a teacher/faculty/staff member/security officer be better equipped to handle what comes afterwards? Who decides is a student is mature enough? Their parents? A psychologist? The school? God forbid the State make that judgment!

I'm on a campus 40 hrs a week, mostly after hours and weekends. There aren't many adults here at those times. One of the things that we have done here is to put on duty 24/7 an armed security guard that is also a police officer. The truth of the matter is that what happened on those campuses was/is a tragedy. One that I hope will never be repeated. Whatever steps we need to do to ensure the peaceful learning environment should be done. We as responsible adults should take those steps, not suggest that the students be responsible. After all, it's our duty to protect our children.

ethan

Hey MidnightBanjo,

Please follow the link I provided in my previous post, and see whether what we, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, are advocating fits within the perameters you have outlined in your posts.

I must admit that I too would be worried if people who are mentally or emotionally unstable or immature may be allowed to carry a concealed weapon on campus. But, as has been advocated by many in the SCCC, the laws would have to conform to the state laws concerning CCW permits: only those who fit the legal state limits and requirements would be allowed to carry on campus. It would be no different from any other public place; if you aren't qualified, trained and duly lisenced to carry, you won't be allowed to. I know that in most states the minimum age for getting a CCW permit is 21, rather than 18, which would rule out about half of all college students, and leave only the older and, presumably, more mature students eligible to carry on campus.

But as far as I am concerned, if someone is over the state minimum age, has no criminal record, has no record of emotional or mental health problems, has been through the proper training and has demonstrated the capacity and maturity to act responsibly with their weapon, they should not be denied the right to carry for their own and others' protection, on campus.

Alex Williams

I dont know about where yall live but her in alabama you have to be 21 to own a handgun/concealed carry license and the process in which you have to go through is a very evaluating one. my brother got one as soon as he turned 21 and kept his Ruger 45 in his truck at all times (seeing as guns on Samford campus were not allowed). many of his friends had undergone the process and my parents and others have deemed them incredibly capable and suitable for this responsibility

By the time I'm 21 I'll only have 1/2 semester left of college anyways! I would love to carry a weapon right now, but alas. I'm of the school "better safe than sorry". So until then it looks like I got to work on my knife fighting skills for defense. Props to Arizona for doing the right thing.

Michaux

The idea of allowing a student to carry a concealed weapon with a weapons permit is a good idea. Personally, I do not think it is quite that simple. You can find a student, or any individual, who can be trained to hit a silhouette target with a reasonible degree of accuracy. My concern is that the individual would not have the maturity to be effective close quarter combat situation. A student might have the maturity and concentration to manage his/her study habits, handle money or live on their own. But anyone who is, or has been, in law enforcement knows what it is like to be in a close quarter shooting situation, whether it be real or in a training situation. In a young student population, I do not belive that type of maturity exists. That type of maturity, to be in a shoot to kill situation, only comes with a lifetime of keeping a cool head in a stressful environment, absolute concentration, ongoing training and the mental capacity to handle to handle the end results. All the forementioned simply does not come with weapons permit.

Bubba

To all those that oppose students with CHL carrying weapons on campus:

We have had shootings at VT and NIU in which nearly FORTY (40) people DIED!!! And that's only two examples! The shooters DID NOT have CHL's/CCW's permits in either case! They PROVED they weren't capable of safely handling either firearms or their personal problems!
I'm really tired of the nation molly-coddling and trying to be PC with these people.
As long as "we" allow lawless criminals to waltz into unarmed groups without fear of reprisal and commit their heartless crimes, why would we want to strip those groups of the ability to defend themselves!?

I'm sorry, I don't understand!

Bubba

jstreet

I don't think most people are "coddling" the nut jobs that did this.

The last thing the victims or police need in these situations is an untrained (or minimally trained) student (or anyone) under tremendous stress making a mistake and shooting an innocent bystander, a fellow ccw holder, or themselves being shot by the police.

Proper (ongoing) training for ccw permit holders would be a great thing and I think would be a huge benefit to campus security. I just disagree that a written test and a couple of hours of range time would provide that.

Jim


YooperJack

I don't know if Bubba's right, or if Midnight Banjo is right. I do know that these school shootings has really got me upset!

The ramifications of this could be huge. Think about it. You raise a great kid, send him off to school, and he doesn't come home. I know that the gun didn't do it, a crazed person did. But, a large portion of our population doesn't know that.

We do train 17 and 18 year old kids to shoot properly, and we send them off to keep us safe. Maybe the CC rules at colleges could be expanded to allow people who have had extraordinary training (veterans) to carry.

I was watching a program on TV, with this topic (O'Reilly?). The question came up; Would you want Ward Churchill to be armed? That ended the discussion! I'm going back a few years but most of my professors, especially forestry, were very capable of carrying. I would have felt secure with the knowledge that they were armed.
YooperJack

Michaux

I support the Second Amendment 100%, and every person has the absolute right to self defence. I just stating that when push come to shove, not every person has the mental capacity, the conscious, or training, to deliberately shot another person.

jack

Midnight Banjo wrote:

"One of the things that we have done here is to put on duty 24/7 an armed security guard that is also a police officer."


As a general rule, police don't stop crimes, they respond to crimes. Having an armed guard/cop on duty is all well and good. But, it proved to be 100% ineffective in saving lives at VTech or NIU.

As to your overall point, how is it that young adults with a CCW license are deemed responsible to carry in all other places, but somehow upon entering a college campus they lose their maturity and the judgment to handle a firearm safely?

Bubba

Between the first shot and the final shot, these shooting's usually take less than five minutes!
Let's look at the VT shooting from a different standpoint. Because of the number of dead, thirty three I think, if there had been an armed student that was able to draw and fire at the killer, fatally wounding an innocent student, regain control and incapacitate the killer, how many lives could have been saved!?
If the class room at NIU had gang tackled the shooter, how many lives might have been saved!?
There was a killing at a beauty salon once where the killer had the patrons of the salon lie down in wagon spoke formation and walked around the "wheel" shooting each person in the back of the head! If I know some fruitcake is going to kill me anyway, I'm gonna fight like hell!
I may not get out alive, but somebody will know I went down swinging.
Not allowing legally obtained firearms to be carried by legally licensed persons is tantamount to telling these people that they "must" run for their lives, "do not" stand and fight!
What kind of message does that send!?
I agree that all CCW permit holders may not be able to handle a situation, but why strip them of the opportunity!?
This is the greatest nation in the world and instead of standing up and taking our schools back from the murdering pond scum, we want our future citizens to "run for their lives"! What happens to the people that have been taught to "run" when they get to the war zone? Cut n' run!? What's there platoon leader gonna do then?!
Everybody is real quick to scream, "NO, they don't need guns on campus!" NOBODY is willing to say, "You have a responsibility to maintain control of your weapon and to use it only when all other routes fail!"
I want my kids to be able to have a fighting chance instead of depending on "9-1-1 Dial-a-Prayer"!

Bubba

jstreet

Again, I don't think people are arguing against the ability to carry. I think most people just wouldn't want people who aren't properly "trained" to carry and respond to these situations.

If you are going to carry a firearm you carry the burden and responsibility that goes along with it. To me, that means military training and/or training from a police given course, on when, where, how and why to draw and fire your sidearm.

Especially, when you are going into a situation where there are hundreds (if not thousands) of people on a college campus and the shooter will look like everyone else on campus (including other CCW holders).

The cops struggle in these situations, what do you think a 20 year old kid would be like?

Michaux

jstreet,

you are 100% correct. Its not about the ability to carry a concealed handgun. It what happen after the gun has cleared the leather. As a side thought, a 45 cal. is the minimum.

YooperJack

Jim:
I believe that most states only allow 21 and older to posess handguns.
How about this: We hicks all have volunteer fire departments. We train them, and pay them apittance for their services. Most of the budget probably goes for equipment, but second cost is training. The point is, we get pretty good fire protection, and first response, from people who actually do something else most of the time.
Could this work with guns? We could call them a militia, or a posse. The primary goal would be to provide some type of volunteer police service where a regular force just doesn't work. Our VFD gets the same training as a city fireman. Why couldn't we deputize and train volunteers to carry?
I reflect on my early college days. Me carrying would truly have been scary!
YooperJack




Our Blogs



Syndicate