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December 12, 2007

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Discussion Topic: Should In-Lines Be Legal Muzzleloaders?

After requiring that guns have a pivoting hammer for use during the 2007 muzzleloader-only seasons, effectively banning in-line models, Idaho is now revisiting the question and stirring up a old debate. Let’s chime in.

From a state Fish and Game press release:

The Idaho Department of Fish and Game wants to know what muzzleloader hunters think about a proposed change in the rules that would allow the use of in-line weapons during muzzleloader-only seasons.

For most readers, your state has already settled this question. But suppose it were suddenly up in air. What would you advocate, in-lines or no?

Comments

GREG

Nobody wants to touch this? Well Ive been drinking already so here goes. I think there shoul be a separate season for truly "Primative Weapons". Cant believe I started this. I gotta get a drink!!!

GREG

Please dont believe the drinking comment. I never start before 10:30 a. m. Except for days the end in Y!

Chris

I dont know why any state would not support the most accurate and lethal versions of muzzleloaders. I dont understand the ethics of requiring someone to use an inferior weapon to harvest game. There is already way too many wounded animals caused by poor shooting with the worlds most accurate and deadly rifles. Why would you put another handicap on crappy shooters? And before anyone goes nuts, I know there are traditional black powder shooters who are accurate and lethal, but todays technology makes it easier for hunters who aren't as exceptional. I believe that it is every hunters responsibility to practice and become an excellant marksman. But, the truth is alot of hunters don't care about being a well rounded hunter or ethical harvesting. With muzzleloading it's one shot, one kill. You can't bust off 2 more shots if your first isn't a kill shot. You have to be a good shooter to drop an animal with a muzzleloader. So why not allow the participants to use the most accurate guns and lethal ammo available?

GREG

Then do away with all muzzleloaders. Thats not the most efficient way to have an accurate weapon?

John

Man, there are so many different types of weapons that it's becoming a matter of not having enough time in the season to devote a specific piece to each of them!

Matt Mallery

Is Field and Stream being affected by the writer's strike? Because this is issue has been done before.

The answer is no. In lines are for people who do not care about the tradition of black powder. They just was an easy way to participate in the blackpowder season without the extra work ture muzzleoaders require. In lines should be allowed only in the regular rifle season.

Chris

Greg is right, inline muzzleloaders are not the most accurate weapon. However, here in Iowa, from 50 to 200 yards they are the most accurate weapon we can use. We can only hunt with bows, shotguns, or muzzleloaders with the exception of a very late January doe-only hunt when we can use rifles in the 2 bottom tiers of counties. I can understand how this arguement would have alot more bearing in rifle hunting states.

Chris

I lied we can use pistols too...

jstreet

I think that inline technology has taken the spirit and intent of "primitive seasons" away but not the spirit or intent of "muzzleloader seasons".

There is a difference and I think it depends on your particular states wording of the season in question.

GREG

Sorry Chris my state is a rifle hunting state.

Chris

Lucky...

WA Mtnhunter

True, most modern muzzleloaders are not primitive weapons by any stretch of the imagination. Washington makes you choose weapon type for the season. You can't hunt rifle, archery, and ML for a species. Also, WA requires a percussion cap ignition with cap exposed to elements and no sights containing electronics or glass. I think the fiber optic beads are OK. No sabot or jacketed bullets allowed either.

Certainly not like most modern ML's on the market. Just a comment, not an opinion, since I am not a smokepole hunter.

Bubba

Ya know, Dan B. and Dave C. did real well, defending frontiers and supplying family with food and protection with REAL front stuffers!
What's this about a "pivoting hammer"? A T/C Omega is an inline, is it not? Tell me the hammer doesn't pivot!
Muzzle loading rifles, at some point in time have delivered ignition sparks from just about every angle. Under hammer, side hammer, wheel locks, .......
It don't make a s--- where the fire comes from, as long as the powder and projectile must be loaded through the "muzzle"! THAT'S what makes a "muzzle" loader!
Let's do away with the Triple 7, Pyrodex and other black powder substitutes. No pellets, each powder charge must be measured!
No more sabots, patched round ball or bullet, lead only! Iron sights only, though they did have some scopes during the Civil War, let's go REAL primitive! Flint lock only!!
Hand knapped flint arrowheads only.....etc. etc. etc.

Bubba

Bubba

Ya know, Dan B. and Dave C. did real well, defending frontiers and supplying family with food and protection with REAL front stuffers!
What's this about a "pivoting hammer"? A T/C Omega is an inline, is it not? Tell me the hammer doesn't pivot!
Muzzle loading rifles, at some point in time have delivered ignition sparks from just about every angle. Under hammer, side hammer, wheel locks, .......
It don't make a s--- where the fire comes from, as long as the powder and projectile must be loaded through the "muzzle"! THAT'S what makes a "muzzle" loader!
Let's do away with the Triple 7, Pyrodex and other black powder substitutes. No pellets, each powder charge must be measured!
No more sabots, patched round ball or bullet, lead only! Iron sights only, though they did have some scopes during the Civil War, let's go REAL primitive! Flint lock only!!
Hand knapped flint arrowheads only.....etc. etc. etc.

Bubba

Craig

I've made this comment before....please go to a National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association blackpowder shoot and you will see what an ethical/lethal weapon an old smokepole can be. An inline does cover all the basics for a muzzleloader but it DOES take away from the tradition for which a separate season was supposed to be for. Happy Hunting!

Tommy

Wow it seems most think they should be banned. Hummm.

I hope none of you shoot compound bows. Isn't bow season an afore-mentioned. "primitive" season. I hope I am wrong, or I hear or read lines from a bunch of ....


Ban crossbows, compound bows, in-line muzzle-loaders, the exotic pet trade, and anything else I missed!

Robert

I personally have not and will not ever hunt with a modern in-line muzzleloader. It is my opinion that the current crop of saboted bullets, pellets of substitute powder and shotgun primers are essentially making a single-shot centerfire rifle cartrige. Those who say that flintlocks and caplocks are slow and inaccurate seem not to have ever fired a well-made and well-maintained one (and no, most of the ones off the rack at the local sporting goods stores don't fall into this category; to make a good one takes more time and effort than many factories are really willing to put in, with a couple of exceptions like Thompson Center and Lyman).

All that being said, I think this debate is about the equivalent of the crossbow/archery debate. There are always going to be good reasons to use the more modern/technically advanced. If all you care about is putting meat in the freezer, then by all means use an in-line. You'll just miss out on the parts of traditional muzzleloading that make it special to me; such as the historical connection, the feel of nice wood instead of a synthetic stock, the smell of real blackpowder smoke, and even the cleaning process (I'm a little wierd, I know, but I like handling the rifle even when I'm cleaning it).

Tommy

I am sure glad none of us can really get anything we want done - done.

If we were an impromptu congress, let us see what we would have accomplished in the last three days.

Many of you advocated poaching and covering it up, on the mexican wolf thread - your names and posts are clear to see; and our youth is reading.
So #1 - Poach wolves if they aren't legal to hunt in your state. OK Brilliant.
#2 - Close the zoos - this wah mtn hunter states alone, and I do not think even he thinks that, because as Greg so eloquently pointed out yesterday in the exotic snake thread, "they are baitin you Tommy and you know it."
Righto Greg - baitin a fight and then mad once they get it.
#3 - ban and shut down the exotic pet trade - surley we need more unemployed folks - righto and brilliant again my friends!
#4 - ban in-line muzzleloaders! Why not? Great idea! I will try to sell my 45 cal maghunter as soon as possible for the impending doom of the in-line smoke-pole!

Wow. If we keep this up, I say we, but I am obviously not at all agreeing with any of this nonsense, we will all be sitting around a campfire singin..well...I don't know what we will be singing, but we surely won't be hunting, taking our children to zoos, buying any pet snakes or hearing wolves where poaching will surely be rampant, because apparently the wolves have beaten the men that say they can't protect THEY'RE livestock.
So kill'em, mount 'em, hell poach 'em - who cares - your kids.

So I guess we just have to bring in high fence hunting, killing all the cats in the US, dog-hunting and trophy hunting.

ban it all!!!!!!!

TOM CASTILLO

I feel that the new inline muzzleloaders are just like shooting a center fire rifle. every is pretty well set except how well you shoot.

Evan

I believe inline muzzleloaders are not in the spirit of muzzleloader hunting. However, I would settle for allowing inline muzzleloaders but ONLY with iron (open) sights.

yrs-
Evan!

Dave in IDAHO

I can't believe I am saying this... I agree with Matt Mallery.

In-lines are simply not primitive weapons. The seasons set for primitive weapons are times when the animals are more vulnerable. So a more accurate longer range weapon would result in higher hunter success. I say leave it as it is.

Tommy, as for "impromptu congress" and accomplishing things, I would think we would get a chance to bring up these things for a vote and then go with the majority. That is of course if we had any power to make a decision whatsoever. As for the list you supplied, it seems that if someone said something - even if it is crazy - you took it as though we all wanted it that way.

Tommy

Dave in Idaho,

Just a few direct quotes so you don't think I am talking about 1 person here.

Shoot...shovel....shut-up

Posted by: Trent M. | December 07, 2007 at 04:59 PM


Trent M summed it up well.

Posted by: Nathan | December 07, 2007 at 05:45 PM

I, too, agree with Trent M.

Posted by: PB | December 07, 2007 at 07:40 PM

Nathan, I like your sense of humor.
Posted by: BA

Practicing all three -- shootin', shov'lin' and shaddinap!
SA

Posted by: SilverArrow | December 07, 2007 at 09:00 PM

Close the zoo's, too. It is a shame to cage up animals except to save a species in dire straits. Let the little city dwellers watch National Geographic and Animal planet or get out in the field and enjoy. I believe that zoo's have out lived their purpose.

Posted by: WA Mtnhunter | December 11, 2007 at 12:09 PM

DO AWAY WITH THE EXOTIC TRADE!!!

Bubba

Posted by: Bubba | December 12, 2007 at 01:19 PM


Tommy

But Dave, the way you obviously feel about wolves, I am sure you have no problems with poaching them.

Dave in IDAHO

I saw all those posts. I don't agree with them. The three s's have been spouted numerous times here in Idaho, but no one ever really does anything like that for fear of prosecution or simple respect for the law. It is a sentiment, not a plan of action. The rest - close the zoos - exotic trade - well that is just crazy.

Dave in IDAHO

"But Dave, the way you obviously feel about wolves, I am sure you have no problems with poaching them."

Now that is just wrong! I am against poaching of ANY animal. I AM a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN. I don't hate wolves and would not shoot one outside the law. I have had many opportunities to shoot wolves and have not even thought about shooting. So let me use one of your favorites - WTF!




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