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November 27, 2007

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Discussion Topic: Are You Ready to Hunt Western Wolves?

From an Associated Press story in the Idaho State Journal:

[A] proposed [wolf] management plan, issued Monday by the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, . . . recommends using a regulated seasonal hunt as the tool of choice for managing, and in some cases, thinning the number of wolves roaming the state. . . .

It also recommends suspending all wolf hunting activity when there are 20 or fewer breeding pairs left in the state.

''We're focusing on managing conflicts with this plan,'' [IDFG large carnivore coordinator Steve] Nadeau said. ''And clearly, that means population reductions in some areas. Other areas, we'll be looking to stabilize.''

Check out the full story and tell us your reaction.

Comments

Tommy

Come on WA,

You know good and well you don't have to live near something to read and learn about it. This is the day and age of information. But you have one point - practical experience is important.

So are you argiung anything in particular?
Are you saying you can substantiate wolves killing humans?
Have you lost cattle to wolves?

If not - I would say right back at ya bud.

Tommy

If you can substantiate these things - please enlighten us uninformed folks as to your data.

I for one would be delighted to hear it; as I am apparently so uninformed on this issue; even though I have read alot and seen many documentaries on wolves, even one latley where the people studied wild wolves up close; in all aspects of they're lives, and were never harmed.

They acually learned alot by watching instead of killing.

Though I fully understand there are sometimes necessary cullings of predatory, "problem" animals, I don't like the idea of public hunting of them. I would re-itterate:

Let the ranchers be compensated for lost livestock and let authorities continue to take out problem animals, as far as I have read and seen that has worked just fine in all areas the wolves are being re-introduced - including eastern NC, where I live.
We are re-introducing the red wolf, albeit a smaller specimen, and there are no conflicts I have read or heard of to date.

No fear

Matt Mallery

Nick,

It is not nature's job to provide a safe,recreational environment for your family. Nature is full of wolves, bears, snakes, bees, lightening, avalanches, hypothermia, sharks, lyme disease, dysentary, giardia, cryptosporidiam, wildfires, raging floods, and other dangers. In fact, that is why it is nature. That is why it is wilderness. If you want a safe sanitized environment in which to recreate, Bass Pro Shops and Cabelas have large tanks for testing fishing gear. Take your family there this weekend.

Tommy

I don't know Matt,

That micro red and blue algae can get pretty bad in unkept tanks.

That was pretty damn funny though.

Cabelas tanks. What a riot.

Tommy

Maybe it is because I have never known anyone to be attacked or killed by a wolf or a cougar or a griz, but when I see a track in the ground that looks like a bear or a coyoye or a fox or a bobcat; things in my neck of the woods, around my house - I get excited. And not to kill it - but just to know it is there.
It means diversity. It means an ecosystem that is not as altered by man as others. It means opportunities to film, hunt, and just be outdoors can be richer; more natural and pure.

Though I imagine an attack on a loved one could change that a bit.

Though I still see no data supporting any sort of wolf on human attacks.

Tommy

Furthermore,

I met two hunters that hunt a 30 acre lease that borders some private land I hunt - across the street from my home, and they informed me that they had taken a 29 lb bobcat a few years back. I knew there were coyotes, and red a grey fox in the area, but honestly I was thrilled to know there could be a bobcat about. There is also a grey fox that has complicated my hunts for deer there on numerous occasions - I have seen him spook the deer plenty of times, but we have decided not to kill him; irregardless of the inconveniences he has caused me on a few early mornings. I don't eat fox. I don't fear fox, and I don't kill things because they make my life inconvenient. That would be pretty weak to me.

I know the bobcats could, possibly mean future problems with someone's pet, but until then, I am glad to know my corner of the world is a bit richer for their presence.

And that fear hasn't grasped every person that enters the woods.

Tommy

Hell - I'm just some bare-footed hilljack from rural NC that loves to see 4 legs lead up to something different once in a while.

WA Mtnhunter

Tommy

Get a grip. Find your meds.

Of course I'm not attempting to substantiate anything by my statement except that most of the posters don't know sh-- from Shinola about the real predator impacts on the livelyhood of those in the problem areas. I don't have to be a wolf expert to recognize BS from cyber experts.

Do you know the market price for a cow/calf pair taken off a grazing area by predators? Some folks in Idaho and Montana do.

And on a related note, the Montana FWP has documented the aging of the Yellowstone herd. The average age is significantly older than other herds not in wolf zones. They are aging to the point of endangering the long term health of the herd. How would you wolf huggers explain that away? Go to their website for the facts, jack.

Tommy

Oh well that explains it.

I think?

I need my meds. Taking stuff from Dr. Ralph I see. He would be pleased to hear your rant - I'm sure, but I meant no offense dear sir, only to point out that you were probably just as distant from the problem as the rest of us, and now that you have posted, obviously just as uninformed.

If you would have actually read what I posted, instead of thinking how to strike out at me, you would see I am all for full reimbursement of lost livestock, and removing problem animals, which would render your soap box rant ineffective when it came to this head,

"Do you know the market price for a cow/calf pair taken off a grazing area by predators?"

Good try though. But I ain't no "wolf hugger", just not a guy that shoots out of fear or cruelty.

Dave

I do not see the need for a hunt at this time. With Idaho being a state of 83,574 miles. 900 Wolfs do not seem to be a huge number. Now I have never been that far west before. So I have no idea as to how big a problem they are to the ranchers or other outdoors people, but if I did my math right, that is still only 1 wolf every 105 miles or so.

As for the Bison, it may be time to reintroduce the wolfs into more of thier old ranges to help control the Bison herds in the parks. I know I would like to see them in there home range. with that said I belive that, all of us as outdoors people wheather hunter,fihserman or animal rights activist need to take resposibility for our actions if we are attcked and it is our fualt for the attack. Or if the population crashes because of the hunting. It is a simple matter of responsibility and a fine balancing act, we do after all live in a sue happy world.

Tommy

And to your point about the aging herds not in the wolf zones.

Well I sure as hell wouldn't start by taking out an apex predator.

WA Mtnhunter

Quote:
"I'm just some bare-footed hilljack from rural NC that loves to see 4 legs lead up to something different once in a while."

Would that be to "something different" than your significant other?

I think that explains it all.....

Matt Mallery

Tommy,

Well said throughout this thread sir. You strike me as a responsible, conservation minded sportman of vision.

WA MTnhunter,

You strike me as many other things though I won't repeat them out of respect to any women and children that may visit this sight. But since you see the importance of getting facts straight, let me remind you that public lands belong to all of us, not just those that seek to make a profit from them.

Dave in IDAHO

Interesting you should bring up yellowstone. When wolves were reintroduced into yellowstone the wolf kill was touted as an elk herd management success story. Since no hunting occurs in yellowstone, the elk herds were large and beautiful. But because the herds were so very large there were concerns of disease spreading and other issues. Understandably. The wolf kill was documented as killing 85% of all new born elk in 2005. In yellowstone this may be a good thing. In my hunting areas, I believe this to be a very bad thing.

I know of no "documented" cases of wolves attacking and/or killing a man, and I don't see them as something to fear as I will likely be armed when I encounter them. Although I know that they currently have little fear of man. I have seen many wolves while hunting elk in idaho. Some have stopped, sat down and studied me from about 60-90 yds, no fear. If we start shooting them, they will learn very quickly to stay away from man and retreat into the wilderness areas - where they have always been.

Every wolf has to kill to survive and they eat only enough to fill their tummy from any kill. I found a cow elk that had been killed by wolves and only slightly more than one hind quarter had been eaten. If every wolf kills 2 elk/deer per week (a conservative estimate), and lets just say there are only 700 wolves in Idaho (probably closer to 1000), 2x700x52 = 72800 animals per year. No other predator in the USA has the ability to reduce herds like the wolf, except man.

I read an article about the deer population becoming a burden back east, take a few of our wolves and let them go in the area. Wont take long to fix the population problem.

Dave in IDAHO

The wolf population only occupies areas where there are adequate food supplies. They follow the herds. So a rediculous per square mile calculation means absolutely nothing.

WA Mtnhunter

Matt M.

Sir, you may draw any conclusion you like. Learn to spell....

Dylan

What are these blogs for? Is it to argue about who's right on a particular issue, or is to brainstorm ideas in which to solve problems? Bashing on one another serves no purpose. It is fine to have opinions on a matter, but there are more productive ways of discussing them. It's better to discuss solutions in order to find common ground. Otherwise, all your doing is babbling nonsense. I may be wrong but I believe hunters, wildlife officials, ranchers, and everyone inbetween visit sites such as this one. I would hope that they walk away from reading the article and the responses with ideas rather than anger.
Good day to all!

Neil Smith

There are no zero zip nada confirmed reports of a healthy wolf ever attacking a live human being in North America.

Dave in IDAHO

Neil,

I did some more research. Not that wolf attacks on humans have anything to do with opening a hunt to manage wolf populations. I found there are confirmed, documented cases of attacks in North America by healthy wolves dating back to the 1800's.
Here is one example:
Sports Afield Magazine, December 2000 January 2001 issue turn to page 21 you will see a picture of a six-year-old boy lying in a hospital bed viciously attacked by a healthy male wolf. It was killed by loggers near his camp. Also this same article reports a 22-year-old man in his sleeping bag on a beach near Vancouver BC he was also viciously attacked by a healthy male wolf, the wolf was killed by Canadian officials.

Matt Mallery

So what if wolves do attack people? It's the wilderness. If you don't want to get attacked, go to the mall.

But could someone please find the area most prone to wolf attacks and take WA MTnhunter there for a camping trip?

Dave in IDAHO

So where did everybody go?

Wolves. Hmmm. So we reintroduced wolves into the northern rockies where in actuallity they already existed. The wolves rapidly grew in numbers under the protection of the government. The ranchers were told they would be reimbursed for their losses but the losses must be confirmed to be wolf kill, so many losses are not paid for. Ranchers have been given the right to protect their livestock but they rarely get the opportunity. So the population of wolves goes up, the population of deer and elk goes down. This causes several economic impacts to the people of Idaho. If there are fewer huntable animals, people stop hunting. This causes huge losses for small towns that rely on hunting for a sustainable economy. The state will have to raise hunting license fees, again, and again whenever the number of licenced hunters declines.

Offering a hunt of wolves would reverse at least some of the impact caused by this regretable reintroduction. *It will reduce the number of wolves, big plus here. *It will encourage more folks to buy a hunting license. *It will cause the wolves to learn that man is a threat and retreat whenever possible - this by itself will limit the number of wolves killed. Once the lead starts flying wolves will be very hard to hunt successfully. *All this will lead to slow recovery of the deer and elk populations which is good news for the people who sell all things hunting in Idaho.

I see no other viable management option but to set a season for the controversial predator hunt in some prime areas in Idaho.

Nick Diestelhorst

Since some of the wolf lovers here wonder why we want to have a wolf tag instated quickly, let me ask this: Those of you who like these cretures so much, do you have wolves in your home state that you hunt in? You may have a different opinion of wolves that are drop in your state with out any plans to keep them in check once they establish a growing population. Here in Idaho, we are seeing the fruits of the wolf reinduction, and its not good. They are movining on from one game heard to the next. I won't be surprise when the wolves find a feedlot or dairy, to feed themselves. They are moving out of the mountains and into the valleys, as well onto neighboring states. Get ready Utah, Nevada, Oregon and Washington; your next for a new preditor for your land.

JIM FREE SPIRIT

To all of you "anti-wolf"people;First of all,the wolves were here FIRST,the coming of the settlers with their cattle and sheep (that was not in that part of the "new world" in the first place)came in and set up homesteads in the wolves' territory.The wolves found that these animals were easier to catch because they were either too slow or in a pen, therefore not being able to get very far.All the wolves were doing was trying to eat.They found that these domesticated animals were "fast food restaurants on 4 legs",if you will,just like YOU and everybody else,we go out to eat,get food already prepared,e.t.c.,because it is "easier and more convienient".And these ranchers started crying because their "out of place" animals were being killed by wolves so they just started killing wolves on site untill they(the wolves)were extinguished.The herd population got out of hand and the govt. reintroduced the wolf to naturally control the herds once more.Now we are back to the ranchers "crying" to the govt. once more.All this seems to be revolving around the one and only thing that these people think is the most important thing in the world:money.Reimbursed for a calf? Where's my peoples' reimbursement for all of our ancestors who were killed.starved,got some kind of disease,or who was just simply shot on sight for being what they were?They (my ancestors) lived ALONG with the wolf,even learned things from them.Yes,I agree there is a problem that needs tending to,but don't hate the wolf for it,they're just doing what is natural.It's man who has screwed up nature and now they are trying to "fix" it.Nature was designed to maintain itself but people dont have the patience to let it take care of itself,they want it fixed NOW their way without regard of what the outcome may be.I sure hate it has come to this.Peace to you all;Jim Free Spirit-Chickasaw descent

Tommy

Dave, you bring some good points to the discussion. The wolves do need to fear man, though I don't know how limited hunts would really help. It is a good thought though. I surely would not take the right for a rancher to kill any animal he thought was a threat to him or his family; as well as removing obvious problem animals, but I just think out there in the woods, they are just gonna shoot em with no fear of reprisal, should they begin to be hunted regularly.

I am not out west. I do not have grey wolves in the area I live. But I will repeat. I do live around coyotes, fox, bobcats; they are around my house. I have no problems with them. I hunt in areas where black bears are prevalent. No problems; ever. The red wolf has been re-introduced in the east and no documented problems.

I shoot what I eat. I eat what I shoot. Never heard of good tasting wolf. I will leave that to the authorities where there are problem animals.

I have, nor will I ever have the desire to shoot something that is also a predator, or something I have no plans to harvest for consumption. Not to bash those that do. I just choose not to. I have no desire to shoot or kill out of anger or fear - and I am glad for that.

Tommy

And to Mr. Mallery,

Thank you for your kind words; and I could only say - likewise my friend.




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