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December 04, 2006

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Discussion Topic: Can You Poach On Your Own Land?

Iowa tree farmer Kevin Kelly finally has his day in court. According to this DesMoines Register article, he shot a deer illegally on his property in 2004, then called the state DNR and asked to be charged. He wasn’t. So he did the same in 2005. Finally, after popping another deer that was chowing his trees this past June, game officials agreed to take him in. When his court case comes up in March, he’ll argue that a 1915 Iowa Supreme Court ruling allows property owners to take deer management into their own hands.

The DNR agues that it already has provisions for helping landowners deal with deer—a program Kelly says is not up to the task. Check out this interesting article, then tell us how you would rule.

Comments

Kristine Shreve

Wow, that's an interesting article. I'm not sure how I would rule. I can see the landowner's point of view but, if there are methods already in place to handle the problem, I'm not sure he is right.

I hope you keep us updated on this case.

Ben Christensen

Rules is rules, and sounds like the state's supreme court decided this one in 1915, as he pointed out.

Aaron Pape

As a farm owner, I can see this guy's point of view. It is his land, crops, and livelihood. He has the right to protect that. This guty is not killing thousands or even hundreds of deer. I've seen what deer can do to a farm. with the giant deer population, there should be more people like Mr. Kelly.

Hunter Ed

Aaron,
I see your point, and it may well be that the DNR's program for landowners does indeed fall short. Perhaps Mr. Kelly's case will even lead the DNR to give farmers more options and better protection from damage caused by deer. BUT, lawlessness cannot be the answer. There must be some acceptable compromise that prevent landowner from feeling that have to break the law to protect their livlihoods.

Thomas

I agree with Hunter. Of course, I haven't seen the fine print of this 1915 Iowa Supreme Court decision, but I suppose I'd be inclined to rule against Mr. Kelly, with a caveat that the DNR work harder or even adopt a new program to better meet the needs of landowners in regard to nuisance deer. (Ideally, a program that allows bowhunters to come in and kill does.)

Jim

I certainly sympathize with Mr. Kelly. However,if all farmers were allowed to shoot deer as the farmer deemed necessary what would that do for wildlife management? Perhaps Mr. Kelly should consider allowing hunters to hunt on his farm as a way to thin the deer population. In either event the deer that are harvested should not be allowed to waste; they could be provided to homeless?

michel

i think he is right. not like it is someone elses property or public property. i live in iowa and i have seen the population out there and it is huge, one hurd of deer can do major damage to crops. so i think he shouldnt get fined

Scott

I love this country but it is too obvious that we "own" nothing. You can work all your life to maintain and survive,make a living for you and your family,yet government can step in and do as they wish.I believe in management of the herd,but it seems the hunter pays for that too! Im with you Mr. Kelly 100% and hope you win your case. Ijust feel one way or the other its all about money and there going to get their share. Good Luck to you!

otis bloodsaw

I am not a hunter & love the majestic animals. Isn't there scents to keep the deers away. And if he has to kill a deer why not keep his mouth shut and get on with his life.I didn't hear of a neighbor complaint or report. I think he only wants to draw attention to himself.

BILL COFFEY

WHEN OUR FARMERS HERE IN KENTUCKY ARE FACED WITH THIS PROBLEM, THEY HANDLE IT THE SAME WAY ! THEY JUST WERE TAUGHT NOT TO TALK WITH THEIR MOUTH FULL !!!!!!!!!
...BILL COFFEY

Eric

I'm an attorney, and while I'd have to research the Iowa cases and statutes a little more, I'd say this guy is probably SOL as far as the law goes on this. There are numerous cases in every state that are outdated because of new laws that have subsequently been enacted. The fact that this case still exists could mean nothing more than the issue has never made it before an appellate court since that original case.

But, having said that, this would be a great case for jury nullification. I'd bet his odds of acquittal would be pretty good in a jury trial! Unfortunately, an acquittal is not going to solve the problem or resolve the issue, as the state can't appeal an acquittal. The only way this is going before an appeals court where any kind of legal precedent could be set is if Mr. Kelly loses his trial. Maybe he knows that and that's what he's hoping for. It's just going to be an expensive process for him.

John David

Mr. Kelly seems to be doing the only thing that he can, and what we should ALL be doing. If there is a problem that is not being addressed it our right and our RESPONSIBILITY to question the actions, or inactions of the government. Read the constitution...... While I agree proper management of the deer herd is vital, Mr. Kelly and his farm should be the first concern of the government in this situation.

Ed Purvis

Weren't DNR's set up to protect wildlife when at the turn of the century, there were hardly any deer? Well mission accomplished! They're back. I can remember my father talking about hunting deer in Mississippi when he was a boy and not even seeing a deer during the entire season (1940's).
My point is that I think wildlife agencies, while necessary, need to be reigned in somewhat. Most every "game warden" I have ever met is over-zealous and rude. There are exceptions of course but it seems the ratio is 80:20 in favor of the A**holes. I have never been cited in my life but it's not because they sure as hell didn't try. Just doing there job my ass.
Maybe state wildlife agencies should teach some manners. I have never met a Highway Patrolman who wasn't courteous and I've had LOTS of speeding tickets.
So to the man in Iowa, I say shootem all because they'll make more.

Ed Purvis

Weren't DNR's set up to protect wildlife when at the turn of the century, there were hardly any deer? Well mission accomplished! They're back. I can remember my father talking about hunting deer in Mississippi when he was a boy and not even seeing a deer during the entire season (1940's).
My point is that I think wildlife agencies, while necessary, need to be reigned in somewhat. Most every "game warden" I have ever met is over-zealous and rude. There are exceptions of course but it seems the ratio is 80:20 in favor of the A**holes. I have never been cited in my life but it's not because they sure as hell didn't try. Just doing there job my ass.
Maybe state wildlife agencies should teach some manners. I have never met a Highway Patrolman who wasn't courteous and I've had LOTS of speeding tickets.
So to the man in Iowa, I say shootem all (deer) because they'll make more.

Lee B.

Plain and simple, I think deer hunting regulations need to be loosened extensively. I live in the suburbs of St. Louis, and ridiculous doesn't come close. The farm that I hunt is just outside city limits, and during a pre-season scout we counted 80 deer in a 700-acre field, only nine were antlered, and only 4 of those were mature.
I can go jogging down my road, pass a doe standing five yards away, and then pass her heading back, and she'll never flick an ear. Reeking carcasses are commonplace on highways.
Early in the previous century we had a problem with over-predation, now we have a problem with under.
Missouri has been moving in the right direction. Establishing a mid October and December antlerless only gun seasons on top of the regular seasons helps, but with the rate of growth and the still relatively low numbers of does harvested, maybe an extension of seasons needs to be implemented. Let's start the seasons earlier in the summer, or permit night hunting, or maybe earn a buck.
All I know is that this bow season I shot a baby doe that weighed in less than 60 lbs with the guts in it, and my cousin shot one that was tiny compared to that. Babies are not supposed to be that small, now matter how late they were born.

Jim

I am also an Iowa tree farmer and for the past ten years have been asking the state to look in to another of their laws regarding deer. As a non resident land owner I cannot hunt deer on my land unless I obtain an out of state license through the DNR. Cost @ $400. Resident land owners can hunt their own land basicly for free using a "land owners permit". (no property tax breaks for being a non resident) I have contacted everyone from the head of the DNR to high ranking politicians (a/k/a former IA Gov now a candidate for President) to ask them why. Not even an acknowledgement of getting my correspondence. Iowa lawmakers clearly do NOT understand wildlife management as there are constant please from the DNR to reduce the IA deer population. Any other non-resident Iowa landowners want to start a lobbying group? Maybe if we band together we can get someone in Des Moines to listen to some common sense from a collective voice.

Dan

I support Mr. Kelly. I too suffer lots of tree & crop damage. I easily lose an acre of corn every year. At 200 bu/acre and corn bringing well over $3/bu -- that's in excess of $600. I am an avid deer hunter, but can only obtain 1 free landowners license without going through a lot of red tape. My wife and son have to pay for their tags. Even with land in two separate counties, and after "feeding" dozens of deer all year long -- all I get is one "free" tag.

duke

Wildlife does not know boundaries or property lines, so it must be protected. Mr. Kelly should work with the DNR and its biologists to address any short-comings that he feels their program may have. No one should take matters in to one's own hands, or we will end up with a depleted population and minimal hunting resources. Mr. Kelly may want to do the right thing, but if he is permitted to violate the law, the rules become gray and unethical hunters, aka poachers, are given a chance to sidestep the law. This is not about property rights -it is about the wild resources which all Americans share and the government is obligated to protect. Unfortunately, Mr. Kelly superceded the law and must be held accountable for his actions. Anything else would blur the line between legal and illegal game.

Pete Jones

When I was a young kid (a long time ago) and was about 10 (1960?). In the period of about 2-3 years while working with him in daily shifts, my sister and I planted 5200 blue spruce trees on his 44 acre lot. The deer ate the tops off of every little tree'ling'. Shoot 'em! It's your property and they could be costing you money. I'd vote for the hunter.

Retired Hunter

I remember reading about an alfalfa rancher sooting 40 to 60 elk a year to protect his crop. Been a year or so and do not recall where I read it.

I see both sides of the problem. Farmers need assistance. However, as a hunter, if this becomes widespread the population of huntable animals will drop drasticly and rapidly.




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