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October 21, 2008

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Petzal: Gun News from Remington

This past week I was in South Carolina attending a seminar given by Remington, Marlin, H&R, Bushmaster, New England Firearms, and DPMS Panther Arms. These companies are joined at the hip under the name American Heritage Arms. We got so much information in three days that my calcifying brain can scarcely handle it all, but I'll give you what I consider the highlights.

Premier_30rem_ar
First is the .30 Remington AR, a new cartridge that's mated to a new configuration of the Remington R-15 rifle. The .30 Remington AR fills the gap between the 6.8 SPC and the .450 Bushmaster. It bears an amazing resemblance to the 7.92mm Kurz cartridge, which was developed for the revolutionary  German Sturmgewher rifle in 1941. According to Remington, it is a 350-yard deer-hunting load that is roughly the equal of the .308. It comes in three versions: a 125-grain AccuTip boattail, a 125-grain Core-Lokt PSP, and a 123-grain full-metal-jacket practice version. The muzzle velocity for all three is 2,800 fps.

Ar30

Remington will sell you a .30 AR rifle ready to go, or you can get an upper that is compatible with the standard AR-15 lower. The new upper accommodates the .30 AR by means of a modified .308 bolt head and barrel extension, and a modified 4-round magazine box.

All this was so new that we were not able to shoot a .30 Remington AR, but it looks perfect for people who like these rifles and have been hoping for a good deer round.

And a word about the Bushmaster: Its paper ballistics are 250 grains at 2,200 fps, but these figures don't do it justice. We were shooting one at an oversized cast-iron groundhog silhouette at 50 yards. A hit from a .223 would cause the target to sway almost imperceptibly, as though a squirrel had farted at it. A hit from the Bushmaster would lift the groundhog up out of its pivots and dump it on the ground. I like the Bushmaster.

Next time: A new .45/70 from Marlin that is cooler than Sarah Palin.      

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Comments

Dr. Ralph

They already have an AR style rifle the R-25 which is available in .243, 7-08, and .308... or so they say. Good luck finding one. Now they have a new cartridge which is even unavailable to highly influential gun writers. What were they thinking?

I think they're putting the cart in front of the horse... if one creates a market and desire for a product it would seem to me that one should have that product available for purchase. I have downgraded my expectations from Remington and lost respect for America's oldest gun maker. You can't even find a .223 Bushmaster clone with Remington stamped on the side and I've driven 1,000 miles looking. Save your press releases until you're ready to enter the market. Marlin XL-7 will probably be my next gun due to availability.

jstreet

Here's some additional Remington news (albeit about shotguns) for 2009:
Remington will introduce a Generation-X version of the 870 pump called the 887 Nitro in 2009. Covered entirely in a space-age polymer, it looks and functions like a Benelli Nova and is priced to be competitive with the Nova and the Mossberg 835. Fire control system and bolt release have been redesigned. This is the design they scheduled for introduction two years ago and scrapped at the last minute. The 105Cti autoloader that made such a splash two years ago but was frought with problems, has been fixed. It'll be called the CTi II, featuring a redesigned gas and feeding system. Anyone who has problems with the original design will be able to have it updated to a CTI II for free. Remington is jumping on the modern slug shooting bandwagon, introducing the 870 Super Slug -- a 12-gauge 870 with a heavy, fluted, 24-inch barrel rifled at a 1-in-28 twist rate rather than Remington's traditional 1-in-35. Barrel is pinned to the receiver and there is no cantilever. Sweet trigger and the scope rail is mounted on the receiver --

I found this on "another" site.

Jim

crm3006

AMEN Richard!!

Dr. Ralph

And whatever you do don't buy a Remington 597 not so semi automatic .22... I have five magazines in three different designs for this rifle and it has never emptied any of them. It absolutely will not fire ten times without jamming and is worthless. Read my link if you don't believe it.

Shane, I also own a 336 built in '64. Two things mine has that todays don't is no cross bolt and a beautiful stock. Not anything like todays bland pieces of wood. Hope yours is too.

Jim in Mo

Once again that was me, having comp problems.

Red

Hey Dr.R,
Marlin has added the XS-7 to the mix. Will be in .243 Win, 7mm-08 Rem, and .308 Win. I'll be looking toward the 7mm-08.

Michael

What would be absolutely great is a picture of Sarah Palin in a simsuit holding the new Marlin 45-70.

Bella

The bad news from remington is that they closed the Gardner Mass. HR 1871 factory and put 200+ folks out of work. I would rather see a lot of small gun manufacturers than one or two humungous ones. Bigger is not better, Gardner is diminished by the closure of HR1871, a lot of people are upset over this decision by Remington. It helps few and hurts many. Bella

eyeball

SL:

ARs are great. They are very tough, reliable, and easy to maintain and repair rifles. They have to be; they are made for life-and-death business, not fun.

ARs can be tuned or gunsmithed to be very accurate as well as tough. And they can be safely customized by the shooter with aftermarket parts. Try that with your Browning BAR.

As to appearance, form follows function in the case of an AR. They look the way they have to look. Some of us like this as well.

In the minds of many shooters, me included, reliability and toughness are desirable qualities. Why NOT stake your hunt on the stoutest gun possible? That the AR provides an instant followup shot is not a bad thing either. Try getting a second shot at a running deer in the woods and you'll know what I mean.

The downside is that ARs are more expensive and heavier for their power than most hunting rifles. If Remington can take an AR-15 sized platform and make it into a 7- 7 1/2 pound deer rifle, without putting a price on it that insults the working man, they will have answered these objections and made something good. I only wish they could do it with a round we already have with us.

Jim in Mo

Bella, this is one of the few times I am in total agreement with you. Big operations look at bottom line, mom & pops look at employees and quality.

Jim in Mo

jstreet,
I imagine, hopefully, the new barrel (870super) can be mounted on a standard 870 or not?

jstreet

Jim in Mo,

I don't know. All the info I found is what I posted. Knowing Remington, the barrel will be available, in a year or two after introduction.

Jim

O Garcia

Andrew wrote: Is there any use for another cartridge- other than making money for Remington?

When you really think about it, there was no need for the .308 either, the .300 Savage and .30-06 were already there. There's no need for the new .30 TC, or for any of the shortfat magnums, whether from Lazzeroni or WSM or SAUM or Ruger Compact.

But the world would be much less fun.

Speaking of the .30 Rem. AR, having not seen its specs, I can only guess it is designed to fit into the AR-15 platform with little difficulty (with respect to cartridge length), just like the 6.8 and the .450 Bushmaster.

Obviously, you can have the "AR"-type rifle in .308 length (AR-10), and DPMS even rolled out one in .300 Rem. SAUM. last year.

Andrew

You have a point but I'd hardly compare this gimmick to the 308- which is the NATO round. I'd say there is always going to be a market for it as it gives you 95% of the 30 06 power with 75% of the kick What does this new round offer? Perhaps, Remington has bitten off more than they can chew. They bought all these gun makers and haven't intergrated them yet. Marlin has some serious problems that aren't being fixed and they come out with a new cartridge that seems to offer us almost nothing at a time when the economy is slowing. I have no problem with them trying to make a buck but I bet this will be yet another odd-ball cartridge that won't be around in 10 years.

sarg

Say what you want, I've shot/Reloaded the .308Win. for my Rem.700ADL for 26 years... Don't sound like the same cartridge in performance to me...

sarg

from the looks of the cartridge, it is more of the size of the 7.62x39 which is close to the 30-30 Win. in performance...

sarg

From the looks of the Pic. the round looks more like it might favor the 7.62x39 which is more comparable to the 30-30Win.

O Garcia

Andrew,

I agree the .30 Rem. AR isn't the .308, no matter what Remington says. Which is why I maintain it will likely find home in the military service, not in hunting. Even though I'm a great fan of the M14, Dave Petzal is right that the 7.62x51 (.308)that it fires can be very intimidating to master for a recruit. The .30 Rem. AR offers a fatter bullet than a 5.56 (.308), comes in .264-.270 bullet weights (125 grains), and promises .308 velocities. Result: flatter trajectory than an AK, greater punch than 5.56, but crucially, less recoil than full power .308.

Kind of what the .276 Pedersen was supposed to do, except it was aborted by Douglas MacArthur. Kind of what the 6.8mm SPC was supposed to do, except the 6.8's velocities (and with it, energies) seem to be way too optimistic.

If the .30 Rem. AR delivers the promised velocity at that bullet weight, I say it's a more practical battle cartridge than the .308.

Will Becker

I'm not a fan of military rifles,but understand we gun nuts have to stick together,no matter what we go for.

sarg

What's the big deal, you don't like...don't buy.. someone else may want it and if bullets are available, good.

sarg

what's the big deal. if you don't like, don't buy... someone will want it and if bullets are available ,great.

Gosh am I the only one who is certain Michelle Obama is cooler than any R or gun. I am a veteran, gun owner/user, hunter, home defender and I pack.

dezzerrt ratt

Gosh, am I the only one who is certain Michelle Obama is more cool than any gun or R. Im a gun owner/user, hunter, home defender, veteran and I pack.

WA Mtnhunter

Blah blah blah...

As soon as you hear a manufacturer claiming that this new round is as good as a .308, a .300 Fartinsniffer Magnum, or whatever, you can bet it is a ploy to separate you from your cash for the benefit of the stockholders!

A 350 yard deer rifle? HA! Most deer hunters can't hit a deer at 200 yards with any rifle, much less 350 yards.

If a .30-30, .243 Win, .250 Savage, .300 Savage, .257 Roberts, .308 Win, .30-06, .270 Win, .280 Remington, 7mm Rem Mag, .35 Whelen, .35 Remington, .300 Win Mag, or any of the Weatherby calibers aren't good enough deer rifles, then there might be a need for a new deer rifle. I think the newest of the aforementioned cartridges is about 35 years old.

Keep buying the new short fat might be as good as ____ whatevers. The economy needs the boost!




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