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August 05, 2008

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Video Topic: Freedom Under Fire?

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Jackson Landers

Note that the BATFE is run by Republican political appointees, and that all US Attorneys are also Republican political appointees.

They answer to the Republican President who ran for office promising that he would sign a renewal of the 'assault weapons' act; the same Republican President who instructed other Republican political appointees to support DC over Heller in that landmark SCOTUS case.

Compare this to the Democratic party which has produced a nominee who supported and endorsed the Heller ruling. The same Democratic party that is today pushing legislation in the House to strike down all of DC's handgun laws and specifically permit the ownership of semi-automatic handguns in DC. Meanwhile, it's also a Democratic Senator (Jim Webb) who is pushing to allow legally concealed weapons in National Parks.

Let's face the facts here; the idea that the Republican Party is the 'Second Amendment party' and that the Democratic Party is the 'anti' party is hopelessly outdated. Maybe it was true 10 or 15 years ago. Not anymore.


This is not a Democrat-Republican issue. Ruby Ridge happened under Bush I: Waco, Clinton.

What is significant here is that a JURY found this man guilty. Twelve of our fellow citizens heard about a gun that malfunctioned. There was no intent, no criminality, no motive for any wrongdoing involved. There was no harm done by the malfunction. And yet a family man who has served his country well now faces prison because of it.

We have jury trials because the point of a trial is not the letter of the law; it is justice. If he had been driving a car and the brakes had suddenly failed, he would have been exonerated even if someone was hurt or killed. Yet because a legally owned gun was involved, twelve Americans thought that bringing down a verdict of 'guilty' was needed to balance the scales of justice. A gun being fired at the range malfunctioned, and only prison can answer. God help the republic.


Postscript; anybody besides me every have a side-by-side shotgun 'double' on him? Two shots with one trigger pull = prison in the above case; the ATF had no shame there. So I guess they're making space for me in the King George Hotel as well.


jackson -

You are wrong about Obama supporting Heller. He doesn't. He's trying to have it both ways. He firmly believes that guns ought to be strictly regulated in places like DC and Chicago. Read his statement. A rational and straightforward analysis proves his hypocrisy on this. I read his statements and determined that he does not support Heller. He supports regulated gun ownership for hunting and target shooting. He does not support ownership for self-defense. If he did - he would have said as much. He does not believe gun-owners in DC should have the same rights as gun-owners in the rural west. That's hardly a ringing endorsement of 2A.

You are also wrong about Democrats being the party of gun owners. It's a laughable assertion. Citing a small handful of Democrats who are gun owners and hunters is not proof of such a claim. Look to any urban government (from small city to large metro). If it's run by Democrats (which it most likely is) you will find an overwhelming tilt against gun ownership.


The fact of the matter is, Obama and McCain both support whatever their polling/focus groups tell them to.

This is about getting elected. Period.


SD Bob

If an oppinion on this matter is formulated strictly with what's being reported on these two video's, it'd be hard to believe the authorities are doing the right thing! Seems to me something is missing? My question is how the hell did the BATF&E ever find out that one gun launched 4 bullets in 2 pulls of the trigger?


Good point SD Bob. Do they have moles at the ranges?

Mike Reeder

This is not a partisan issue. This is a case of a permanent bureaucracy insulated by civil service protections pursuing its own agenda regardless of the wishes of the temporary occupants of the White House or congress. Civil Service was the first great gvt. "reform," and replaced the nasty old "spoils system" which at least used to produce a change in gvt. with elections. It's also a good example of why anyone should run for their lives when they hear some politician call himself a "reformer." As soon as I'm off this forum, I plan to email everyone I know in D.C. and raise holy hell. I suggest that would be a good course for everyone to follow. The best immediate relief would be a full Presidential pardon, followed by legislation to prevent something like this from ever happening again. Long-term, sympathetic reps and senators should be urged to withhold BATF funding until such time as the agency itself drafts internal rules forbidding any prosecution involving the malfunction of otherwise legal arms.
You can contact the White House at this website: http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
You can find your senator at this website: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
You can find your representative at this website: http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW_by_State.shtml
You may not believe it, but elected officials actually react to contacts from voters, particularly when those messages are written by individuals and not part of some organized campaign.

Jim in Mo.

This guy must've had the worse lawyer in the world. With the poor track record the ATF has how in the world could a jury find him guilty? I just want to gag when I hear stories like this.

Dr. Ralph

This is so mind boggling I can't even comment until I calm down. The world is changing. The world is changing fast...


I just have that queasy old feeling that if it happened to him, it could happen to me. I just read an article on foxnews.com about a 17 year old kid who actually was up to something (i.e. having weapons underage and plans detailing the president's motorcade).
What was scary was that he had 4 military style rifles (the news article referred to them as "assault weapons") and was charged with stockpiling weapons. When does firearm "collecting" become "stockpiling" or is the definition at the whim of the government? It appears that the kid was up to no good, but what stood out was the fact that he was charged with stockpiling weapons and ammunition.

Jim in Mo.

Thats what I was trying to say but to much to put into words. Mind boggling? No, not considering the ATF was involved.
I still think something else was involved that may not being said and atf did have reason, but I sincerely doubt it.


An old joke among the farmers in Arkansas where I grew was "Hi, I from the goverment and I'm here to help."
The prosecuters obviously stacked the jury with people who had no firearms knowledge.
Yes, the defense was inept. Can the NRA send help?
Lesson to all and was sage advise from my dad also "Never loan your gun out without you being present in its use". You never know a person until you see how he handles a firearm. Frankly there are too many who think they know it all. To me, shooting 800 rounds in a borrowed gun is abuse.
BATF has a history in rabid enforcement of gun laws against people who have little or no means to fight back.
But don't worry Obama is here to help.........uh, not!


A jury convicted this guy. Why, what evidences were presented to them that didn't get on Lou Dobbs? Certainly based on the report the guy didn't do anything illegal.

Current climate in Wisconsin with several 'Assault Rifle' multiple homicides in the vicinity recently including the one last week may be part of the jury's influences -- however wrongly applied.

If the report we saw was unbiased and accurate then I would pray the man gets his conviction reversed, the senior BATFE Agent in charge disciplined and the man gets his guns and rights restored. If there is more than Mr. Dobbs' reports gave then let the chips fall justly!

Kelly Welch

As Mike R said, contact the Pres, all Senators & Congressmen!
You may be next!!!

Dick Mcplenty

This is what happens when society starts falling apart.

Without a doubt the most powerful individual in society if left unchecked is a law enforcement officer.Wether it be local,state or federal. The first officer on the scene has the ability to look the other way or go forward with a bogus charge and make it stick in many cases.

Juries are selected not on their ability to think freely,but on their ability to be brainwashed by which ever side has the most money.This guy can't afford a hired team of guns in the court room,but the goverment can.

I bird hunt with two attornies.One of them is an ex state prosecutor,turned defense attorney..The other is a highly successful defense attorney.One of the few things they agree on,is that the less evidence or proof the prosecution has in a court case,the harder they will push for a conviction.Because they know full well that the whole case rides on them bluffing and baffling the jury with circumstance and bullsh!t. Good evidence stands on its own two feet and the human nature of the prosecution is to not push the jury as hard.

Clay Cooper

Any Veteran knows that when the right conditions which is rare to happen, you will get what appears to be multiple burst when in fact it is not!
Every once in a while it happens on the firing line.

First of all, the M16 and AR15 is a single stage trigger which does not have the two stage trigger we are accustomed on the M1 Garand and M14 and M1A.

What really happens with this kind of scenario is the shooter squeezes the trigger and the first round is fired, the bolt and hammer instantly cycles with another round in the chamber and the hammer back in ready position all the same time the rifle is still recoiling back. Then as the rifles moves forward with the shooters finger applying just the right amount of pressure, pulls the trigger again and possibly again imitating full auto.

Clay Cooper, USAF Retired
USAF High Power Team




what do you know anyhow!

to bad it didn't happen to you!!

Clay Cooper

Had jury duty 5 months ago and got tossed out because the attorneys tried to make us believe its ok to drive a Ford Van, pulling a loaded trailer with a load passengers and luggage, it’s perfectly ok not to wear a seat belt especially if it a inconvenience, pass out at the wheel, hit a guard rail, lose control, the Van rolls and it’s all Fords Motors fault!?

I told them I never unbuckled a dead person and what part of, pull over if you’re too tired to drive!

Clay Cooper

Hey brian

What do you know about Military rifles?

Clay Cooper

What’s that spring loaded device you install on an AR15 trigger guard that puts just enough pressure on the trigger to make a semi ROCK-N-ROLL?

And it’s legal!

Dick Mcplenty

Thats funny,every M-16 I shot in the army had a two stage trigger and the cadre trained instructed us on the use of that two stage trigger.

Its not difficult to botch a trigger job and have an AR sporadically go full auto.Common enough that I know of two very good smiths who won't lighten OEM ar triggers anymore having had customers rifles firing multiple bursts with a single trigger pull.

Also worked law enforcement long enough to see multiple dead bodies pulled from seat belts.When the newspaper reports those deaths,they conveniently leave out the seat belt part and just say "auto related fatality".Its only news worthy when you die without a seatbelt.

Dick Mcplenty

Clay I can't even phuckin' believe that you'd try and claim membership in the air farse shooting club and then be ignorant enough to try and claim the M-16 has a single stage trigger.Especially when you have companies like JP,jard and shilen to name a few, making single stage triggers specifically to replace the original two stage trigger.

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