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May 05, 2008

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Amateur Hour

A week ago, I watched a timed shooting event at the club that tolerates my presence. It involved five-man teams who were required to run down a 50-yard hill, then up another 50-yard hill, grab five rounds of ammunition, run back to the firing line and shoot, offhand, at a 1/3-size target of a bighorn sheep. I watched with delight as a couple of them frantically hauled on the triggers after shooting the first time, not realizing that they had failed to work their actions to get a second shot into the chambers.

Stress is the great finisher of the unpracticed shooter. After the battle of Gettysburg, 27, 574 muskets were collected from the field. Of these, 24,000 were loaded; 12,000 were at least double-loaded, and of these, 6,000 had anywhere between 3 to 10 charges down the barrel. The soldiers who had left them behind were so terrified that they loaded without realizing they were not firing.

Last week, a New York City judge returned a not guilty verdict in the trial of three detectives who had fired 50 rounds at a car with three unarmed men inside it. One of the three detectives fired a total of 30 rounds--a whole magazine, reload, then another one--with no return fire coming at him. I'm not entitled to pass judgment on people who wear badges, but this does not sound like New York City has a training program that amounts to anything. Overall, in actual combat, the NYPD has a hit ratio of 20 percent--two hits for every ten shots they fire.

If you knew that the surgeon who was about to operate on you got 20 percent of all his test questions right in medical school, how happy would you be about it? I think Mayor Bloomberg, who is concerned about the misuse of handguns, should chip in a few billion and buy his police force enough practice ammo for them to become competent.


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Mike Diehl

Savage 10 MLIIs are each proofed to above 40,000 psi.

Del in KS

Mark 1,

Well I just got back from the range. Had to shoot my inline 45 to season the ultraborecoat. That stuff is better than the guy said it would be. After the 3rd shot I swabbed the bore with a wet patch. Loading got easier with each shot. Fired 13 more shots using 150 gr of Pyrodex pellets without cleaning at all. No crud ring formed in the bore and the last bullet was probably the easiest one to load. The heat and pressure seasons the bore coating and after cleaning at home the bore looks like black glass. If you want to try this stuff go to www.ultracoatingsinc.com and check out the video on gun cleaning. Your barrel must be absolutely clean before applying ultraborecoat. This stuff protects the bore from rusting if you don't clean right away and makes the bore so easy to clean you only use a wet patch or two and a couple dry patches and your done. In the past I had to wipe the bore after every shot what a pain in the a**.

BTW If memory serves that Savage inline is the only ML rated to use smokeless powder.

Jim in Mo.

Let me know more

Clay Cooper

Del in KS
Looks like Mark-1 one is having a meltdown!

Del in KS

Jim in MO,

I shot the 2506 a few times looks like 61 gr Hodgdon H1000 , WW case, Fed mag primer, 100 gr Barnes XXX is very accurate (under 1" @100 yd) and has the best velocity in my Kimber w 24" barrel. Chrono battery went dead so will have to go back with new battery to get actual velocity. Expect it to be in 33-3400 fps range based on earlier shots. Tried Clay's suggestion of IMR4831 and H4831 among others. None would touch H1000 in my gun. THIS IS A COMPRESSED HOT LOAD START AT 57 GR AND WORK YOUR WAY UP. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. The borecoating in this gun is now cured and cleaning took 2 Shooters Choice solvent wet patches and 4 dry ones (no brush or harsh solvents).
The inline did so well I am now coating the bore on my longrifle. There is enough stuff in one kit to do at least 5 or 6 guns all for $40. First clean the bore absolutely clean. If done right that takes 45 min-1 hour. I use Barnes CR-10, Shooter's Choice, and J&B bore paste as the instructions said. It's not ready until a tight clean patch soaked in degreaser comes out of the barrel without any traces of fouling. It takes a lot of elbow grease to get there. Next degrease with a soaked patch then follow with a dry patch (it's a good idea to remove action from stock and clamp it in a padded vice while doing this). After drying the bore you are ready to borecoat. Shake the bottle for 2 full minutes. Put a loose cleaning swab on your rod (example 22 cal swab for a 2506). Dip the swab in borecoat and slide it thru your bore repeat 2 times then Do it again once from the muzzle for the last 6" of barrel. Wipe any excess or spills up quickly because if it drys it stains ANYTHING AND IT DRYS FAST. Wear rubber gloves 'cause it's hard to wash off your hands too! Let the barrel dry at least 6 hours and you are ready to shoot. It takes 10-20 shots to cure the bore. After that it gets easier to clean everytime you shoot it. Copper and lead fouling will be virtually non-existant. Cleaning will be a snap. As long as you don't use metal brushes in your bore (no longer needed) the coating will last as long as the barrel lasts. Nylon brushes are safe.


Del in KS,

Unlike those on this blog that profess cosmic knowledge on anything and everything, I have virtually nil experience with in-line muzzleloaders. I hope my questions weren’t unreasonable.

I’m still baffled how pressures can be obtained in a muzzle loader for those velocities. It’s my understanding black powder burns at a constant rate. It was my understanding most black powder cartridges operated around 25k psi. I thought the primitive blackpowder rifles and black powder shotguns operated around 5k psi, maybe to 13k. This limited velocity to 1400 fps….or there abouts…in all black powder rifles. I could have my facts mixed up, but this is what I thought. With this in mind…..

If an in-line gives velocities above 2250 to 2500 fps, what’s the theory behind it? What is the barrel length? Does the 209 primer provide the velocity?

If what is the effect of heat on the plastic [it is plastic?] sabot? ....Especially if you stuff smokeless powder into these in-lines? Is a sabot always used, or do you shoot cast lead bullets at time?

Many thanks for your time and patience to all on these questions.

Sd Bob

The banter of good cop versus thug cop is a good read but I'm going to relate the stress of the "fight" to something way safer and exponentially more fun! I consider myself a very experienced hunter who has been exposed to many flight experiences by birds flushing to get the hell out of dodge. Watch what happens when a rooster or a ruffed grouse explodes at your feet and you've switched guns from previous hunts and the safety is in a different spot or now you've switched from an auto to a double trigger SxS. With no bird in air you know better but when the adrenalin surges, things happen.



The Savage can use smokeless!?!?! hmmmm.

on the cops. . . its NYC . . .while i think it sounds like they were trigger happy. .um. . it doesn't sound like a cops life is worth much there to alot people.

Well I sold my M94 centenial. I am keeping my .22 though. My Ruger 10/22 that I have had for 5 years now. Only a few thousand rounds through it. 5-6 bricks id say. Unless a friend of mine wants to buy it....its not worth just selling it. The guy at the gunshop said that alot of people are sellin right now.

Mike Diehl

Yes, the Savage 10ML-II can load smokeless. It has factory recommended loads in the manual for a couple brands of smokeless powder, including Accurate Arms 5744 (which I use in mine), as well as factory recommended loads for Pyrodex pellets and some kind of Black Powder (FFG as I recall, but I don't load that).

Del in KS

Peter and Mark 1,

I read the Savage can use smokeless but have no experience with that gun and do not know which powder you would use.
The high velocity attained with inlines is due to several things. First is Pyrodex or triple 777 BP substitute in large charges. Both have more energy than black powder. Second by using a plastic sabot you can shoot a smaller bullet in the bore of choice (lighter bullet more velocity). It takes more heat to ignite so most inlines use either 209 shotgun or large rifle primers. Some sabots are better than others and in my guns when I use the 3 pellet (150 gr) charge accuracy suffers even with a high pressure sabot. Examination of the used sabot shows the high pressure caused the back end to bulge out sometimes split. I was out shooting 2506 and flintlock longrifle this morning and My chonograph indicated I was averaging 1800 fps with my flintlock longrifle with a patched round ball and 80 gr powder charge. I just put a new product called Ultraborecoat in the barrel and this stuff is amazing. I always had to run a wet patch in the bore between shots because with the BP crud you could not push a tightly patched ball down the barrel. Not anymore. I shot an unbelievable 12 times just poured the powder in and pushed a patched ball down the barrel, primed the pan and fired. This stuff is going into all my guns.

BTW most inline barrels run from about 22 to 28 inches in length depending on model.


Will that ultrabore stuff work in a traditional like a TC Renegade? How about regular CF rifles like a 94 win?
Boy, there's lots I don't know!

Del in KS


So far I have used it in my kimber 2506, Knight 45 cal disc inline and my custom flintlock longrifle. Bill Evans is one of the owners and a 15 yr friend. Bill says youcan use it in anything that shoots. In my opinion it works really good on all guns but Muzzleloaders is the absolute best because they typically have the most fouling. It will work on any type inline or traditional, etc. The key is to follow the directions and DO NOT cut any corners. It was really fun today to be able to just load and shoot. No cleaning between shots. Typically after the first couple shots you need to swabb the bore once. The heat and pressure of firing cures the coating and after that its smooth shooting. Cleanup with a few solvent patches followed by dry patches. Do not use any metal brushes. nylon is OK. I talked to Bill this morning and told him how delighted I am. He said at least 2 major muzzleloader companies are testing Ultraborecoat and you may see this in new firearms in a year or two. You can go to the website at www.ultracoatingsinc.com and watch the video of gunwriter John Barsness cleaning a rifle to be borecoated. The kit they sell for $40 will coat at least 4 guns. I've done 3 with mine and there's still enough left for at least 2 more guns. Funny you mentioned leverguns. Last week Bill showed me a Marlin 336 that was rusty and had a broken stock. He bought it for $100. Right now he is out at the range shooting it to cure the barrel. He put a new stock on it, refinished the metalwork, and coated the bore.

Del in KS

Oh, forgot to mention the Kimber 2506 using Barnes Triple x 100 gr bullet, 61 gr H1000, WW brass and Rem 9 1/2 Mag primer clocked an average of 3280 fps and shot just under an inch @ 100 yd for 3 shot groups. I waited for the barrel to cool between shots.

Jim in Mo.

I saved the mail you sent me about ultraborecoat video.

Del in KS

Thanks Jim, Earlier I said it was John Barsness but it was Richard Mann in the video. Barsness wrote the instructions for cleaning that comes in the kit.

Clay Cooper

Del in KS pretty much said it. Today’s plastics, ignition systems, propellants and metallurgy nothing like the old Damascus Shotgun my Grandfather had, allow us to push past the barrier of yesterday. Just think when the first car was developed. Skeptics said you would smother to death from the wind stream traveling past you and what about the speed of sound? The X-15 really blew that theory all to heck didn’t it! For traveling faster than the speed of light? Is it possible?? I think so!

One thing Del and I have in common, testing the limits of the equipment in hand to see just how much performance we can squeeze out of it. Kinda like tinkering with a Corvette and the Dodge Charger years ago. Tweaking and peaking everything and adding aftermarket parts like 4 barrel carburetors, cams, pistons, regearing the rear end etc. just to have the thrill of speed and outrunning the Cops not because you robbed a bank, it was because a group of you were drag racing and that was the thing to do back then

In today’s firearms there is really no difference like driving a 150 grain 30-06 bullet out of a 22 inch barrel at 3100fps or my 2250 fps load. To be able to hit at ranges that was unheard of this morning.
Did I mention I had a 30-06 with a 22 inch barrel?
I’m surprised David hasn’t picked up on that and gave me a what for! LOL!!!

Clay Cooper

Hey Neighbor up north
How R’YA Del!
Did you get clobbered by that storm front the other day?

Del in KS

Sorry, not on subject but while at the range it occured to me today that we in KC are very lucky that Bruce Hodgdon donated the land for our local rifle club. We have a range complex that would be the envy of a small army post. It has 3 pistol, shotgun and 4 rifle ranges out to 500 yds. Membership is $75 a yr plus a $200 initiation fee. After hearing what some guys have to pay to shoot a few rounds I don't grumble about the recent bump in dues. Bruce also helped establish a Trap, Skeet, 5 stand and Sporting clays club open to the public just down the road.

WA Mtnhunter

I'll bet more deer have been killed with 22 inch barreled .30-06's than any other flavor, other than the .30-30.......

Clay Cooper

WA Mtnhunter

Sorry to burst you bubble; it's the 22 long rifle last record holder! As for the 22 inch 30-06, only in the few past years have the 22 inch has become the shorter version of this old time favorite. I wonder whats the count of the 03-A3?


WA Mtnhunter
The cops were NOT being shot at. No bad guys guns !

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