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May 11, 2007

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Quote of the Day

David, listen to me. Last year I had a client who brought a .270 because the safari took every cent he had and he couldn’t afford another rifle. He killed 16 head of game with 16 shots. How can you do better than that?”—Ian Manning, professional hunter, Botswana, 1978, after I had been nattering at him for a week about which cartridges were best for Africa

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Comments

Bushwacker#1

David-
Another "look what a .270 can do" story?
What in the name of magnum primers is going on here,Batman?

Steve C

Enough with the .270 already. Bell did it with a 7mm Mauser and others with the 6.5mm MS.

alabamahunter

Dave, what do you have against the 270. I think it's a good round so you could just lay off.

kaanimal

WOW! The .270 is really making the "Quote of the day". I guess Cooper and Whelen and other must have been right! I better go buy one!!!

Aaron

Do you have some kind of conspiracy with my wife to keep me from getting another rifle to go with my .270?

Dr. Ralph

The ghost of Jack O'Connor must have invaded Petzal's mind. I own one .270 and have never been very fond of it. For such a small projectile it just kicks too hard! In fact the recoil from a .270 Win is greater than that of a .257 Weatherby Mag! The older and softer I get, the more often I shoot my 7X57 and .308...

Pete

I have found that it's not necessarily the rifle caliber that's important but the "caliber" of the person holding the rifle!

Dennis Smith

I like both the 7x57 and the .270, but I learned a long time ago marksmanship and woodsmanship count far more than mere caliber. Or as my Dad used to say: It ain't the arrow, son; it's the Indian

Clay Cooper

Jack O'Connor?
Man your bring back great memories!
For African game? Mousers chambered in 8mm, 7mm and 6.5x55 where very common. They were considered as fine cartridges then. I’ve noticed the 6.5x55 Swedish is coming back slowly. At the age of 13, I’ve won a many turkey shoots with that cartridge and it to is a fine choice. I remember shooting a Speer 140 grain soft point boat tail with 44 grains of IMR 4350 with a CCI 200 primer behind it and it was a real canyon smoker for those long shots as well. It sure shook the folks up at that Tucson Arizona rifle range those days with it’s big boom and the accuracy of a short rifle. Now come the magnums to include WSM and WSSM! The WSM’s and WSSM’s are nothing more than a spin off of the 22 PPC target rifle. It was no more than a flash in the pan. I feel that the WSM’s are nothing more than that, a flash. It’s interesting that any caliber derived from the 06 casing is bound to be a #1 choice for the most experienced hunter, competition shooter and especially the inexperienced. Go to any high power competition and stand behind a shooter in prone position. Upon firing, you will see a shock wave traveling down thru their body to the tip of their toes and back up to there head. You will also notice a much higher level of frustration and a lower score of the magnum shooters in general. As 2nd generation retired Air Force High Power Team, I spent countless hours in the field and on the range not just in competition but also in running and assisting hundreds of shooters getting their firearm accessories, put on (scopes etc), solving there problems and tweaking them in for hunting season. 4 Years in Alaska, I realized my Father teachings and what I believed was proven true. For the average shooter, the 270 Winchester is a real fine cartridge indeed. Competence in the ability to put the smallest projectile of good construction for that application on target in the given area is far more lethal than using any magnum risking a clean miss or worst yet a gut shot. You can say anything you want. At the end of the day, it’s that little 13 year old rubbing it in, telling you how he bagged that big one with a 1 shot kill using that cartridge of the 06 while your sitting next to him holding your howitzer cannon, a pocket full of empty brass casings, nothing to show for it and it’s a long ride home.
I do believe that magnums are OK.
It’s the shooters consistent ability to hit their mark to be the most crucial part.
TARGETS……….UP!
Clay Cooper

Clay Cooper

About the 270 Winchester?

It’s really funny to watch someone who all there life that all they used is a 30-30 and switch to a 270 Winchester like my friend George Krug in New Mexico.

I have a good friend, a great hunter, woodsman who hunts w-tails and smaller game with a Rem 22 mag scoped. He does not try the 500 yd shots these WSM-ESSM guys do. He stalks as close as possible and shoots the deer near the ear. Keeps a frezer full of meat all year. But, his success does not indicate to all that a 22 mag is the choice gun for w-tails. I too used a 30-30 at the beginning of my BIG GAME hunting career, but graduated to the 30-06 and never regreated it for a day. Too me a 270 kinda light caliber for large Elk, but fine for w-tails and smaller game such as Lopes, on down. With the ammo available for 30-06's no need to buy a larger caliber firearm. Can hunt from P/D's to Elk with a 06, and I suppose bears. However with the Mean bears, I would use 220 grain 06's and insist my guide carry a larger back up gun just in case my shot was off. Regardles of caliber, to me the secret to success is lots of pratice and know where a given wt bullet will strike the target. Few of us ever burned out a bbl with pratice. The new Ammo now available for the 30-06, easly turns it into a 300 win mag, if you need that heavier load. Again, I bought one of the WSM's in 300 mag, shot 3 times and traded for a new 700 CDL in 06. The 30-06 Rem CDL has been to Montana and WY for past 3 yrs and my tags were filled with-out a 2nd shot.To my way of thinking, the 280 is superior to the 270 if you not going to the 30-06. With correct Ammo the 06 will shoot flatter and further than most hunters think. Take a rangefinder out West on your next hunt and know your distance, then hold accordin, will be suprised at results, I was. Shoot-um-straigt and ofter.rr

Drew    McPherson

The 7mm cartridges have the best BC numbers on the charts .
The 280 (7mm) is great if you want a long action caliber ..
I love my 7mm08 its the perfect cartridge for white tails . and my featherweight model 70 spits it out just fine ..

Walt smith

.270's are the media's cinderella but I'll put my 30-06 up against it any day!!!! Especially the Winchester Fail Safe 180 grain hollow point which I have a thousand of.

I must admit I'm very fond of my 7mm8. It kicks hardly even though it's under about 7 pounds . It knocks stuff flat. Out to 250 yards this is an excellent caliber and my ruger is very accurate. I also wanted to ask Dave what his favorite scope is.Zeiss ,Swarvoski ,Kahles, or whatever else you may like. I prefer Zeiss.

alabamahunter

That last comment was posted by alabamahunter.

Dr. Ralph

Anonymous about the scopes... I have a few from Swarovski, Kahles, Leupold, Weaver, Zeiss, Swift... et al... My favorite is the Zeiss Conquest at $399! Swift makes an excellent $200 scope and Swarovski makes an excellent $1500 scope. Just how much is your budget is the real question.

X Ring At 9

Drew McPherson
If you say, the 7mm cartridges have the best BC numbers on the charts. Please explain to me Sir, why is there no 7mm on the 1000 yard line in NRA High Power Rifle Competition. They’re either .223 with a 70 grain or all 308 calibers. Every blue moon someone will come up with an oddball. Palma match shooters shoot 308 Winchester bolt guns with a 11 inch twist and shooting a 155 grain pill. One more thing, the 30-06 can shoot a 190 just as fast as the 7mm Rem Mag 175 grain. What you don't know is at 1000 yards the 06 is flatter, faster and has more foot pound energy! Far as scopes are concerned, I'll pit the Leupold line pound for pound against all other scopes. Take your scope and secure it so it dosn't move. Look thru it at an object and move your eye up, down and all around. You may notice that the crosshairs will move 1 to 6 inches at 100 yards. Leupold is solid!

Been there-Done that

Spend as little or a much as you want on scopes, but will never come close to quality and accuracy of a Nikon Monarch in 3 x 9 x 40: now it's 2.5x10x42. @ about $450.00 is the best scope I ever used, and I;ve tried all of them at one time or another. Buy the above Monarch and a $800.00 to $1000.00 30-06 and you got all the gun you need. This set up will come close to a "Custom" built rifle with the new improved trigger set up on the Remington line and cost you a lot less Money than a semi-custom job. Then take the savings and go West and kill that big Elk and Mulie.

Ed J

X Ring

I think you have an optomistic 30-06. Acording to Hornady & Sierra the 190 starts out 200 fps slower than the 175. The 175 gets to 1000 yds in 1441 ms. The 190 takes 1608 ms.
If both are zeroed at 200yds the 175 drops 274 inches while the 190 drops 340 inches. The 175 delivers 1496 ft-lb @ 1000 yds while the 190 delivers 1317 ft-lb.

At our local 1000 yard range the last NRA sanctioned event had lots of 7mms and several other calibers

One more comment Leupold Rules!

Clay Cooper

Ed J
There is some truth to what X Ring At 9 is saying. First of all you cannot rely totally on reloading data due to so many variables. If you have been reloading as long, experience with so many types of cartridges and firearms as I have been, you’ll find that reloading data will be watered down and companies will favor a particular cartridge as the years go by. The 25-06 and 257 WSSM is a prime example. The 257 WSSM I wouldn’t own one. Because there are gas guns, lever, pump actions and barrels such as the 30-30 with both .307 and .308 diameter in past and present productions, out now, reloading data must consider them all into the equation. The 7mm Rem Mag is ideal with lighter grain bullets up to 162 grain and it is on my list of consideration to be my next rifle along with the 264 Win magnum. The 264 Win Mag is my #1 choice at the moment. The 30-06 is better on the heaver end of the spectrum compared to the 7mm Rem Mag. With the Hornady 190 grain soft point boat tail, using Military match case, Federal 215 magnum primer and 58 grains of IMR4831 in my bolt gun. I can safely use 59 grains, but 58 grains will thump it out at 2857 fps. A friend reached over while I was looking the other way and picked up one of my 190-grain loadings at the range and dropped it into his Remington gas gun. Boy did he get a shakeup! Upon firing, the casing went flying across everyone’s head and the scope hit his eyebrow cutting him just enough to draw blood. Examining the fired case, the primer looked within range of pressure, but the force of the gas actuating the bolt to eject the case, the extractor literally pulled the rim off the case and the distance the case flew was almost twice the distance. I hope you get my point. The point is this Sir, knowing the reloading books and knowing what a particular cartridge can do in a given firearm will be like a fingerprint. It’s a case-by-case base. You and I to include everyone else will go round and round all day. The bottom line and end of conversation is this. 1. Can you shoot it safely? 2. Will it be accurate? 3. Will it affectively do the job accordingly with state laws and hunter ethics? And 4. Can you consistently hit your target with it at a given range? I instruct the hunters that I have trained that the ideal cartridge, they must be able to hit a 2 pound coffee lid at 200 yards kneeling using a 1 ¼ inch military sling. Reaching out to 800 yards on a jackrabbit running was the norm for me. Using 22-250, 25-06, 30-06, 300 Win Mag and a 338 Win Mag. The point I’m trying to get across, this subject is not a level playing field as those expect to be. It’s a case-by-case situation. In Alaska, any reputable Guide will not take out a client with less than a 30-caliber rifle. I have personally witnessed several guides telling a client that there 7mm Rem Mag will stay at home and bring at lest a 30-06 or larger will be allowed. All of this is my case and point. Don’t you dare try to pick at any one thing I have said! It must all be in the mix! I’m expecting now some Goober Smootcher going to add “MY BLA BLAA NECKED DOWN 17-50 BMG is better than yours. Whatever dude! It’s that 15-year-old boy in Alaska, the 2nd Sunday in September 1989, that stuck the largest Bull Moose I have ever seen using a bow that will show us all up! Yes ME TO!

Ed J

Clay Cooper

My 22 Eargespliten Loudenboomer is disappointing. The bullet doesn't travel like lighting.

from Goober Smootcher

Your preaching to the choir. I have been reloading for about 45 yrs now. I should have added that these are reference manuals and there are lots of reasons they are called that. Read the beginning of them and they will tell you that the accurate loads are rarely the fastest or hotest. If the bullet doesn't follow the same path, what good is it? Before I reload for someone I need the Rifle that it is to be used in. I can't work up an accurate load with out the gun.

One load I have fun with is in 7mm08 in a Savage striker.Its win 760 behind a 100 grain. It shoots flames about 30ft.The bullet is long gone but the powder is still burning. It really lights the nite up but not very accurate in other words, useless accept for impresing Goober Smootchers or Grass Hoppers.

I load a 22KHornet, favorite because its so fussy. Hornady 40gr V-MAX 14.5 grs AA 1680. I got a Ruger 77/22 hornet.
My go to gun is a 25-06 on a 98 Mauser, nicely figured walnut stock, double set triggers, 26" barrel, weighs a ton.
2 years ago I bought a Win 70 in 270WSM. It kills whitetail deer, but I haven't got a load that gets under MOA.

BTW
My brother has a pre 64 mod 70 in 22-250 and I have a 22-250 on a 91 Argintine Mauser, I did that when I was young and knew everything. I worked up a load using H380 behind a 50 gr sierra for the old mauser, worked good, accurate and not to hard on the old mauser. It was near max in the manual. My brother put one in his Wincester, bang pierced primer. He put another in this time the primer didn't pierce it just extruded into the firing pin hole. Both shoot factory rounds with no poblems.

sometime you just don't know.

Clay Cooper

Ed
7mm-08?
The Fire Starter!
The quickest way to light a camp fire!
Like to see that! LOL!
Ed what powder you using? BLC-2, never tried it but it really lights up a M1 Grand really good!By the way, bed room was also my fathers reloading room.
I can relate to all of that.
honey do time catch ya'll later!

Drew McPherson

1000 yards ????? I cant even see a 1000 yards , I sure wont be straining the barrel of my 7mm08 trying to shoot that far .
my 70 feather weight is light easy to carry (after I chopped 2/12 inches off the front end) and when I shoot (we have trees in Canada so can only see the white tails a hundred yards away or so )the deer falls down , or the short action gives me a second shot right away .and if for some reason I saw a white tail across the big field (we only have one ) the 7mm08 will go the 300 yards , and still allow me to move my shoulder after .
ps the 30.06 hurts my ears as well as my old shoulder .

Dr. Ralph

Keep your money at home not in Japan don't buy a Nikon scope! Owed you one "been there..."

John

New to the shooting sports, but I have been using Hensoldt scopes and they are the best I have ever seen. I currently own/use; S&B 1.1-4x20 Short Dot, USO 1.8-10x37, Hensoldt 3-12x56 SSG-P and Hensoldt 6-24x72. Oh one more scope, it's a FKF M84 from '52 which is rather good but nothing like the others.




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