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May 31, 2007

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Quote of the Day

“During my years of study on high velocity and killing power, I have come to one definite indisputable conclusion. Velocity plays the most important part in killing power.”—Roy Weatherby, “Killing Power,” The Gun Digest, 1951

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Comments

Mark

Clay, On 338 "Hyper" load: Did some research on the 338 Mag loads in 225 grain. Check out Speer Manual #12. It has the 75-grain 4350 load listed, among others, with the the pressure data. You'll be OK loading compressed 75-grain loads in your 338. Hornady tends to list oading data that's somewhat hotter han Speer. Check out that manual, too.

Clay Cooper

Mark!

Are you loading for the 338 Win Mag or 340 Weatherby. 75 grains of IMR 4350 is way to hot for my Browning. 72 grains for 225 @ 3000 fps and 70 for 250 grain bullet @ 2800 fps with IMR4350 with Federal 215 primers. Which 4350 you using? You’re scaring me here Mark! NO JOKE! Hodgens or IMR. Although they have the same number, they are deferent in burning rate. I’ve found incorrect data in reloading manuals before. The only way I think you are getting away with it is two ways or better yet the combination of both. None magnum primer and seating the bullet really deep less than overall length that the manual calls for. You may have in addition a lot of free bore.

Be careful Mark!

Clay

Sandbagger


Comparing a 220 Swift with a 450 Marlin.

What an OXYBANAL!

I’ll take a 338 over a 450 Marlin any day
450 Marlin is nothing more than a face lifted 45-70

Sanbagger

It takes velocity to kill.
Have you seen a bullet setting
on top of a table
That’s zero feet second
with the ability to kill?

KJ

Actually, Sandbagger, it takes penetration to kill. Speed is one factor in the equation, but hardly the most important. Weight is at least as important. As an illustration (try to stay with me now): take a golf ball and a ping pong ball - roughly the same diameter, but very different weight. Stand by a snow drift. Throw the ping pong ball at the snow drift as hard as you can. Then simply drop the golf ball on the same snow drift. Which one penetrates farther? The golf ball, even though its rate of travel was much slower. Simple physics.

Mark

I think you better check the published Speer manual at this point, Clay.

This particular manual lists H-4350 in 338 Mag at the same 75-grain compressed load for a 225 grain bullet also. It certainly behooves anyone to approach the loads posted on this blog with caution. BTY I took it the conversation referenced IMR 4350.

If your 338 is that sensitive not to accept Speer data, it might also behoove you to have the chamber checked. I suspect you have a very tight chamber on that rifle; maybe you have a bad chamber. Actually, I think a 100 fps difference….even a 200 fps difference for any bullet given bullet weight in this 338 caliber will be a very marginal difference in performance on game. “…Much to do about nothing..”

I observed this in 7mm between a 7mm Mag, a 280, and in 7mm Mauser. Within any given bullet weight, with a good solid hit, the result was a dead game animal. The difference in cartridge velocity really didn’t matter much I believe prior 350-yards.

Roy Weatherby developed wonderful cartridges, but there is a tremendous amount of hype in the Weatherby line IMHO to where I recall the adage: If you can’t make a better pickle, you make a better pickle jar. E.g. 7mm Weatherby Mag isn’t all that different from Remington’s 7mm Mag.

Clay Cooper

Mark

IMR4350 is faster burning than H4350. They are not the same powder!

Check out the new AR-15 coming out. Called the 450 Bushmaster. Nicknamed “THUMPER”

Dr. Ralph

Should we all chip in and buy one for Zumbo?

Sarge

Need another volunteer to hold my target

I bumped the sights on my LAW ROCKET again

Sarge

Ed J

Hey Dr Ralph
I got a new keyboard the other one malfunckded like some of the arguements, excuse me discussions, seen here. Panther arms makes an AR-15 in the 30 Rem saum which is leagal for a hunting arm in some states.

To the topic, Roy said that velocity is the most important thing. He did not say it was the only thing. He didn't say how close other factors are to velocity.
Isn't it interesting that he, KJ, chose a 450 marlin which was designed to get more velocity than the 45/70. Why not compare a 45/70 to a 460 WBY? More probable why not the 55 rem accellerator in a 300 WIN, which does above 4600fps compared to say a 190 Hornady at 2900 fps?

Dr. Ralph

Yeah why does weight X velocity = momentum but weight X velocity squared = energy? Gives a little boost to the ultra high velocity boys don't you think? Still scratching my head on the physics there... .257 Wby Mag has TWICE the energy of a slug at 25 yards? They're selling but I ain't buying it!

Clay Cooper

By God' your finally getting it there Dr. Ralph and Ed J

Clay Cooper

22-250 Remington with a Nosler 55 grain solid base at 3850 fps sizzles thru a 3/8 steel plate

Dr. Ralph

Now you're getting it Clay... what good does all that energy do flying out the other side of your target? What you want is that massive energy transfer that flips the animal in it's tracks. Go back and compare/contrast .45 ACP & 9mm!

Clay Cooper

What I believe the reason behind the 450 Marlin is for safety reasons to get away from the old Trap Door 45-70’s still out there. I know for a fact that you can take a Ruger #3 in 45-70 with a 350 grain bullet and run it on up on the bottom scale of the 458 Win Mag.

Dr Ralph

Have you seen the frangible bullet there experimenting with? Talk about soft tissue destruction! Take a 30-06 with a 150 grain soft point and shoot a large roast. Blows a nice hole thru it with some meat destruction and the bullet keeps going. Now take a frangible bullet. It’s like a NUKE going off and there is no bullet exiting. Total destruction of the roast. This leads into why I prefer using a 30-06 on Caribou rather than a 338 Win Mag. It’s the Hydrostatic Shock, the transfer of energy into tissue. About a third of the rib meat is inedible because its blood shot due to hydrostatic shock. A friend of mine, Mac Thompson back in 84, last day and last minute shot a barely legal less than 2inch spike mule deer in the neck. Dropped like a rock. I found a hole in the heart large enough to stick my finger into it. I can tell that the heart was destroyed by handling it, a real mushy feeling. Hydrostatic shock did the trick. The shock of that 165 grain Hornady spbt went down from the neck to the heart blowing it out not to take in account on what it probably done to the brain.

Every shot is a case-by-case base. What vitals are hit and the location of the bullet hitting to transfer the energy (hydrostatic shock)? That what made the M-16 so deadly in Vietnam


KJ
That new AR-15 450 Bushmaster nicknamed THUMPER, I can’t find any info on ballistics yet. That should be a good brush gun for you. Wouldn’t be a bad round for the Military


Clay Cooper

I’ve been debating on using my 338 Win Mag for White Tails this season.

But I don’t know if I want to carry one piece or several pieces. LOL

Alaska BEAR tales
by Larry Kaniut

Many bears have gone to bear heaven because someone misinterpreted its false charge, and there are many men who have been chewed on by bears because they assumed the bear was only bluffing.

Clay Cooper

Alaska BEAR tales

Posted by Clay

Michael

Just like Elmer Keith liked, big, heavy bullets at the highest speed possible made the difference for me w/ my 47-70 in Newfoundland on a moose weighing in at approx. 1,200 lbs. He was running and I was running until I put a 35o gr nosler partition in him. I didn't "roll" him like a bunny, but he sure wqent down and stayed there

Michael

oops, I meant 45/70

Gary Smith

KJ, you know you don't hunt with the .223 FMJ-M-16-a2 round. my advice to you, DON'T get caught with one while hunting here in Kentucky. In reality, I'm glad that we can hunt deer with a rifle here in Kentucky. Our good friends,in our neighboring state,(Ohio) are not permitted to do so. Clay , I've still not got around to loading the 130Gr. in my .308, I usually do my loading in cooler weather. Something to do
while the snow flies.
Clay, do you like your .338? I've been looking at one, or maybe a 7mm.08. I still will hunt deer here with my .308 but A gun cabinet is just like A pantry, not good to have empty spaces. Clay, what state did you say you are living in...

Gary Smith

Clay, sounds like you feel ,if you shoot a deer with the .338 mag. you don't have to clean or quarter it in the woods. Boy, I shot one down in a deep hollow one time, like to never got it out, I don't use a four wheeler or ATV, just me and nature. As I've said before, enjoy and learn from your hunting experiences. When I retired last year from a local University, they got me a .17 rifle. love to shoot the little thing Does a goog job on crows and other varmits of small size. would't want to use my .308 or 7x57 on them.

Charles R. Manley

Grizzly? Charging?
.375 H&H.

Gary Smith

Hey, what ever happened to the good ole .35 rem in the .336 Marlin? That used to be one of my favorite Bear/deer gun. Good brush gun, quick to function in the woods, had to get a little closer but thats what hunting's all about. Used to shoot it and then listen to it crashing through the brush. Really liked that ole "gun". Should never had traded it off... "o" well, now i can hunt the fields also.

Drew

Hello I have a question is the 220 Swift legal to deer hunt with in Alabama? (please respond as soon as possible)




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