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February 23, 2007

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ZUMBOMANIA, PART II: David E. Petzal responds to your comments

As has been pointed out by those of you with long memories, I wrote a piece 13 years ago about the then-looming assault rifle ban. The story was unpopular with a lot of people, but nowhere in it did I endorse the ban, as some are claiming. I note that none of you have seen fit to haul up the many, many times I’ve said critical things about Senators Clinton, Schumer, Feinstein, and of course our beloved former President Bubba. But then it seems that most of you who are visiting here don't read this blog, or Field & Stream, or what I've written to defend the Second Amendment over the years.

Here’s some other relevant information: When I wrote it, black guns were not nearly as important a part of shooting as they are now. We can’t afford to sacrifice them, just as we can’t afford to sacrifice .50-caliber rifles (which I wrote about positively a couple of issues ago in a story called “Way Out There”).

In case you’re wondering, I’ve been using black rifles since 1965, when I hunted woodchucks with one of the very first AR-15s sold commercially by Colt. I’ve worked over many a prairie dog town with one AR variant or another, and if Les Baer were to send me one of his rifles (a heavy barrel flattop in .223, please), I would not send it back. I currently own an M1A. I don’t know if that qualifies or not.

Most important, you shouldn’t construe any of this as an apology. It isn’t. But it is the last thing I’m going to say in this space about the Zumbo matter.

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Comments

William Stojack

There's a thought ! It is for the children, right ?NEWS FLASH, NEWS FLASH ! Will the NUGE take heat for "Upgrading" (whatever that is) "Z-Man"? Seems so. His web site is in an uproar ! Seems a outfit called DPMS-Panther Arms ( Major EBR Mfg.)has announced on it's Homepage that they are dropping sponsorship of the Nuge's TV show. Wow ! There is not a sound of this on the Web , no out cry for Nuges head. They just did it, out of the wild blue !___Wm Stojack

William Stojack

Yes Sports-Fans ! Its confirmed! DPMS has pulled out ! It's another one! Might be tough to "Upgrade" this turn of events. You can speak your mind in this country, thats the 1st at work. But, you are the one to take the heat for your opinions . Is this "eating our own"? Or is it "culling the herd of the weak"? Or, what ?---- Wm Stojack

Jubal

In a message dated 2/27/2007 4:59:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes:
Dear Brigade,

As you know I am also the WebMaster for Jim Gilchrist and the Minuteman Project [MMP]. See below my latest MMP email. I am asking you to forward this email everywhere and ask others to pass it on as well. Upload it to message boards, and post it on websites. We need your help to let the world know about these shameful, greed-driven and downright diabolical conspirators.

As always, for the Cause - Linda

PS -- Within the last few minutes they also hacked into our MMP website and took control of it - they put up an "under construction" sign. For now, stay tuned to our www.forthecause.us site for MMP news and updates.

-----------

Dear Minutemen,

Yes it is true. Several people who Jim Gilchrist fully trusted have put their pursuit of money and power above the Cause. They conspired to remove Jim Gilchrist as head of the Minuteman Project and insert
themselves in positions of power in the organization.

Who are these individuals?

Deborah Peterson - AKA Deborah Courtney
Marvin Stewart - a quasi-Minister and government worker
Barbara Coe - California Coalition for Immigration Reform

I am still stunned. Did they really think that all of us would just roll over and let this happen?

See the MMP press release below and please note the following about these three individuals:

1. Using stolen passwords they hacked into our Web Servers and changed the passwords for several of our accounts.

2. They took control of all our Minuteman Project email addresses. As of right now, all email sent to anyone @minutemanproject.com goes to these corporate raiders. We are forced to use our personal email addresses until this is resolved in court. You can contact us at:

Linda Muller [WebMaster] - [email protected]
Jim Gilchrist [MMP Founder]- [email protected]
Tim Bueler [Media] - [email protected]

3. It also looks like they might have stolen our email list. If you, as a member of the Minuteman Project email list, receive email claiming it is from the MMP, from anyone other than me, Tim or Jim, please remember it is bogus.

4. They stole over 20,000 pages of our letterhead stationery and envelopes bearing Jim Gilchrist's personal signature. Needless to say if you receive any letters in the mail that seem out of character, you will know they are from this band of devious conspirators.

5. As of right now they have been unable to hack into our website - we still have full control over it. Tommy Crenshaw, who manages our system, is keeping watch on it round the clock. He says they are using sophisticated hacking tools to try and break into the Web Server. Thus far he has been able to thwart their incessant attempts to break in. Again, if you notice content on the website that seems out of character, you can assume that they were successful in taking over our website. If that happens, stay tuned to my personal website at www.forthecause.us for updates.

For now I just wanted to make sure you know about our email addresses and the stolen stationery so you will not be confused if you are contacted by them. I will be writing up much more on this over the next
few days and posting it on the www.minutemanproject.com and the www.forthecause.us websites... and also emailing it to several lists.

Please help Jim Gilchrist and the Minuteman Project by sending this information across the USA. Post it on websites. Upload it to message boards and chat rooms.

I for one will be damned if I will stand quietly by while Deborah Peterson [AKA Deborah Courtney], Marvin Stewart and Barbara Coe try to steal the Minuteman Project from Jim Gilchrist. How about you?

As always, For the Cause - Linda
And still the Minuteman Project Webmaster!

Nugentfan

Well Mr. Stojack it would seem that you Sir are giddy with excitement that DPMS threw Nugent under the bus.
It's a sad day indeed when a person who's a strident supporter of the 2a and is trying to help another human being gets treated in this manner.
DPMS has received a letter from me concerning their lack of decency and testicular fortitude in the matter and I encourage ALL gun owners to do the same.
Hopefully another AR manufacturer will step up and offer to help sponsor Ted's show.
Let the implosion continue.

William Stojack

I don't know how you managed to deternined that I'm "giddy", over the internet. But that aside, who is it that "i'm treating" , and in what manner? You, the Nuge ? I posted what is taking place according to the TNUSA board, and ? I would think that he has supporters here who could add their voices, and come to his aid with E-Mails etc. And you want ? And "the implosion" is ? Did I mis-state something ? I think not.___Wm Stojack

Greg

The Nuge just posted this on his forum yesterday so DPMS' action is confirmed (see quote below). Nugent referred to all of this incident with Zumbo, Petzal and himself (Nugent) as 2A insanity. He's right.

There are many gun owners and hunters who do not like certain weapons and therefore do not support their ownership. These same people then get mad when the affected gun owners get mad about having their 2A rights trashed (so to speak) by fellow gun owners and hunters.

Instead of admitting that we ALL need to support ALL aspects of the 2A, this minority is continuing to argue that their opinion is a valid one that should have no repercussions from AR-15 owners, etc.

Essentially, Petzal, Zumbo and their supporters want to have freedom of speech yet shout down the rest of us for attempting to exercise that same right and are also demanding freedom from the consequences of their speech. This double standard simply isn't going over well with AR-15 owners and other 2A supporters who believe it encompasses all weapons and not just select "hunting" weapons.

At some point, ALL gun owners, hunters and even fishermen need to realize we either band together and support each others' rights or face being divided, conquered (politically) and losing some if not all of our rights to own firearms, bows, fishing tackle and to hunt and fish with them.


"My BloodBrothers, I have never asked for personal assistance on my own behalf, however, DPMS Panther Arms claim they are getting hammered by the antigunners amongst us (lunatic fringe for sure) to abandon any relationship with me or my TV show for my stand to upgrade Jim Zumbo into a pro-DPMS rifle guy. HUH!!! Unbelievable for sure, but the cannibals amongst us are beyond xplanation. I respectfully request any of you who care, to write a brief, POLITE note to DPMS boss Randy Luth via Sasha at [email protected], with your take on my standing up to educate upgrade & recruit JZ & his Nugely discovered 2nd Amendment absolutism. Ya with me? ASAP plz!! Brief & POLITE! HITIT! Happy shootemup weekend!

[This message has been edited by NUGE (edited 03-02-2007).]"

Greg

I've noticed that Alex Pohl (much like his preferred author Petzal) can't seem to make an argument without attacking his opponent (a favored liberal tactic). Calling somebody who wishes to own an AR-15 a Rambo of America is pretty cheap, disingenuous and low class. You admitted you're "ill-informed" about the legality of these weapons yet feel free to post comments on whether they should be legal or not and cannot understand why somebody might get upset when you attempt to take away their 2A rights.

Referring to these weapons as "various tactical toys" is not an attempt to elevate the discourse and is simply another slam on AR gun owners instead of any attempt to discuss the matter or learn something.

Opining that a person who owns an AR would somehow be happier living in Iraq, Afghanistan or some other 3rd world country where they would need armored cars and AK-47's simply because they wish to own an AR is a ludicrous and asinine argument that serves only to further insult your opponents instead of trying to discuss this civilly with them.

And posting that people who disagree with Zumbo's and Petzal's statements would like to live in those same countries so they could issue fatwas against anyone who disagrees with them is ignorant, asinine and reprehensible.

You claim that the NRA issued fatwas (those are religious orders to kill somebody in a holy war) against Jim Zumbo. You have libeled the NRA with what proof??

You talk about the need for rational arguments instead of body armor and firepower, then post such ludicrous and libelous statements. Exactly how do you think your "irrational" statement is going to solve anything?

Mark

Dirtcrashr's quoting of Petzal's 1994 anti "military" diatribe shows just what all hunters and gun enthusiasts need to fear. A person posing as a man on our side saying what we use/like or want is wrong. What more does an anti need than "our own kind" saying we are wrong? Find a new line of work Petzal- I think the Brady group might hire you.

William Stojack

I for one laud both Greg & Mark for their rational discourse. Nice change isn't it? Still no response to the questions I posed to Alex. Take your time. It seems as though we don't have just a "gap" in thinking. Are we not here to narrow this down? Lets go with some facts ! And how do we help ourselves? Do we go foreward or ? The last thing anyone needs is a replay of '68, '86, '94 , etc. I think that part of the component that resulted in those laws was ignorance and "scare tactics"But that said, maybe as some have pointed out, the vote with our dollars is even more effective than our electoral vote. And we have a means of communication that was only a dream then , the Net. ____Wm Stojack

Krusty0369

I just got a sweet Bulgee AK-74 (semi-auto) in trade. I'm trying to decide between leaving it in 5.45 and just using it for a blaster or convert it to 6.5G or 6.8 SPC and take up deer hunting again. BTW I support Panther Arms in their right to make command decisions based upon the feedback from their customer base but like I said earlier I think old Zumbo took enough of a beating on this. It might have been late but he did fully acknowledge that he was wrong and appologize. I would speculate he is in a financial situation where he could have just said FYT and retired. Instead he's making an effort to make things right. I heard he's actually going to attend a top notch tactical course and pen an article for SWAT magazine.

Oh and Bill if things go well this summer I'm going to get finger printed, have my background check done, sign away all my protections from illegal serch and seizure and drop a paycheck to get my class III manufacturer's permit. It'd be nice if the ATF gave some of that money to help out conservation but they claim to need it. I'll let you know when it comes in you'll have to bring "the ole man" down for some full auto silenced goodness. Still say this site needs emotocons.

Guns-Up!
Krusty

elmer

The 2A isn't about hunting it's about gun ownership. Got it. No right to hunt, therefore no right to hunt with EBR. As was mentioned earlier States have been deciding legal hunting implements for years.
One thing to keep in mind, not having 2A protection the hunting crowd is much more vulnerable when it comes to anti-hunting legislation, much of which is public referendum vote. That's why image becomes so important. When we lose public support, we lose hunting privledges, such as hunting with an EBR. Which isn't an attack on 2A rights, so we've been told.

AIRFORCE

Follow along everyone....................breath in.................exhale..............breath in................exhale..............AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH. Seriously calm down. Are you all just a bunch of head hunters wanting blood. If you don't shut up now you will kill this man's career. Do you all want that on your heads. This mans job is to envoke thought and response. He's doing his job. No doubt you have said stupid things that you wish you could take back. No wonder he hasn't responded to any of it. Keep on keepin on Dave.

Krusty0369

Airforce,
People are pretty calm now. Even when this all started and this page was getting like 4 hits a minute there were some strong words and some of the dialog was a little over the top but most of it centered on the issue at hand. If you actually go through and read it all there are allot of instances were people found out they weren't that far apart after all. Most of us just want Mr. P to acknowledge his support for the origional AWB and appologize for insulting us. He doesn't have to loose his livelyhood like some people in the EBR industry did as a result of what he contribuuted to.

G/U
K

Randy

Why, should you be treated any different then Jim.Stand down, no second chance.

Randy

Why, should you be treated any different then Jim.Stand down, no second chance.

bobby binzer

The people here love to play with the bigness of their littleness.

So esoteric a discussion, so passionate about so very little.

I'm a gun owner, but I can't understand for the life of me why so many insist on minutiae as if their own definition of being depended on it.

So many here exalt and split hairs over the bathwater and have no clue about the baby.

And for those who simply cannot ever resist bringing up Clinton (either male or female) -- Go get a real life. It's well into 2007 now. Hello -- where have you been for most of the past decade? Time to grow up and move on. Didn't we get our black rifles back? Like, the better part of a decade ago?

I don't give a hoot about getting my black rifles back.

I want my habeas corpus back. And my privacy. And my sense of American decency that went along with knowing that we didn't torture people, no matter the situation or how heinous the crime of the war criminal. Because that's what fascists did. And Stalin's men. And we weren't like that. But not any more.

But all the black rifles and Barret sniper rifles didn't seem to deter that from going away.

What's the use of a thirty round now-legit pre-ban magazine if you are thrown in a jail without charges or access to counsel or ability to face your accusers? Oh, I've heard it before: Sticking someone's head in a wet bag until they think they are drowning isn't really torture. It's just 'harsh interrogation'. No more than frat-boy hijinks. Sure it is.

I think the hi-cap sunset was a pacifier thrown to those most susceptible to this insidious rot. I think it worked, too.

But wait! If you're white and Christian, why worry? Only culprits need fear. Herr Himmler said that himself.

I'm glad I read this article and these comments. I'm glad the author had the integrity to say what he had to say.

It's so revealing that being even nowhere near pro-gun lopsided is now so often seized upon as being somehow akin to treason. Dave even felt the need to defend himself -- "In case you’re wondering, I’ve been using black rifles since 1965". Please stop that, Dave. It detracts from the courage it took you to take your position, and does nothing for those who attack you. Do not apologize to fools. They will jump on you for even an extremely mild case of objectivity.

Dave please stop defending your position against people who have no desire for critical thinking, have no desire other than to see things in black and white, and have no respect for differing viewpoints fairly presented. Calling you a Quisling is a cheap insult; it's an attack, and a cowardly one at that. It's easy to throw anonymous spitwads from the back of a big room.

They're gonna hate you for even your *thinking* about being even-handed. Which incidentally, as you knew and tried to point out, you weren't. Not especially. You were able to take a temporary objective view. But Dave you are dealing with a readership of very conservative people. A hypocritical sleight-of-hand conservatism, as conservatism now is in reality radical. Both fascism and communism in the '30s were radical. I'd be surprised if you haven't gotten any death threats from this stuff (as silly and trivial and ridiculous and petty as this whole subject seems). After all, you already were compared here in the comments to a fascist traitor -- and keep in mind what happened to ol' Vidkun. And we all know what they do to traitors. Thus to tyrants, and all that.

Well poor Dave. You are probably now learning that anything remotely approaching objectivity is a no-no (and you sure as heck weren't skewed toward them gun-bannin' libruls -- you made it very clear on that score) but alas, to no avail. No effort is extreme enough when you are dealing with extremists.

Stupid stunted shriveled rightwing authoritarians.

How else can one explain what's behind this veiled threat of a post of "Thanks a lot, Dave. Quisling then, Quisling now."?

Vidkun Quisling was the name of a Norwegian who played the willing puppet to his Fascist masters. And for those Google-impaired Fox News readers, please look up 'fascist'. It's not the same as you've been told. Is about as far away from liberalism or New Deal as it is from Goldwater conservatism. But not too far from what's going right... um.. shh. Hate to get called a traitor. Nasty business. People like to act out on it, think they're Lord Protectors of the Realm and all that. Defenders of Democracy. Patriots. And they don't have worry about volunteering to go to Iraq. That can get messy, crimp one's lifestyle. Or just crimp one's life. Taking a baseball bat to my mailbox or threatening my wife is so easy. No real danger, no real sacrifice. Just like those "support the troops" yellow ribbons on those SUVs. For a dollar ninety-nine, apparently one can buy immunity to the irony.

Say, why are we in Iraq? Can't be about oil. I know Cheney still says Saddam was behind 9\11 and all that, but everyone else in the world, including the 9\11 Commission, says that's soap bubbles. Saudis flew those planes. Fifteen of the 19. More than three quarters. They own more than three quarters of the oil, too. None came from Iraq. None from Iran. None were based in Iraq. Nor Iran. None had any connection with Iraq. None with Iran. Even Cheney really knew. That's why Scooter Libby now has to go to jail.

Smile when you fill up your SUV. That dollar ninety-nine fake yellow ribbon is a bargain, if that's all Iraq cost you.

Oh. So sorry. Traitorous of me, wasn't that? Undermining the War effort and all that.

Say, why are we in Iraq?

Well I'm a traitor, too, Dave. Been called that before, 4 years before, just for the attempt at objectivity. Only now it looks like I was one of the few who wasn't the fool, the only one who didn't betray.

I still believe in America, but it's America as what it was.

We don't torture. And we don't start wars with people who don't attack us. And we don't spy on citizens. And we don't throw American citizens into jail without charges or trials or even seeing a lawyers. Even if they are from the poorest families, with checkered backgrounds or past records, we still believe in innocence until proven guilty in a court of law. And we don't torture anyone. Period. Neither Nazis nor Commies nor enemy non-combatants nor enemy combatants. We don't torture political prisoners, or those under suspicion, or those caught red-handed, or those who are like the Jeffry Dahmers, or the Ted Bundys, or the Mansons, nor do we torture the sick, the deranged, the murderers, the mass-murderers, the monsters, the psychos or the truly evil. Because torturing people is what the truly evil do.

Except that we do. Now we do. Just like the Stalinists, just like the fascists. Just like Pol Pot. Just like Pinochet.

But I am no doubt a traitor.

I suspect the commenter in question who called you a Quisling is most unwilling to face the possibility of projection. Usually when someone implies "fascist", you know you are hearing from the same.

Dave you played it professional, with your own voice and your own take, without pandering and without pretending you had no voice or take on it either. And from this blog I can tell so many hate you for it.

Recall in 1933 Germany any but the most extreme were denounced by passing gangs of Brownshirts as being not extreme enough.

Well Brownshirts and Brownshirt-wannabees, go clutch your black rifles. Fat lot of good it did. You people are the living embodiment of the most persuasive argument why the 2nd Amendment is outdated and useless.

Yah, OK "AIRFORCE" (guess you never hear of lowercase letters, huh?) I hear your bleating: "Most of us just want Mr. P to acknowledge his support for the original AWB and appologize for insulting us."

Like expressing a differing opinion is insulting? Why is it insulting to you personally? Why should Dave apologize to you -- because you simply didn't agree with what he wrote? Will it make you sleep better? Make you feel more secure? What do you hope to gain by an apology? If this isn't your own personal powertrip, then why should you care?

However, I certainly won't diss AIRFORCE for not knowing how to spell apologize. Nope. Sorry, wouldn't stoop that low to someone addicted to UPPERCASE for his online NAME.

Oh. 'Scuze me. I was SHOUTING there for a minnit. BOLD NOISE MEANS I WIN, I suppose.

But let me say it seems to diminish your argument, AIRFORCE, that Dave provide you with an 'appoligy'. After all, why should he 'appoligize' to you for his not sharing your precise and exact same sentiments? It's not like you hold yourself to similar exacting and precise standards -- hey, you didn't spell 'apology' exactly and precisely, even when you wanted to.

I'd hope Dave has as much reason to concern himself to 'appoligize' to you for his failure to split hairs and reassure you on subtle differences between his and YOUR opinion as you have reason to concern yourself with your failure to split hairs and make subtle differences between 'appoligy' and 'appology'.

Really, dude. It's amazing to hear someone demand an apology when you can't even spell it. You really want me to believe you understood what Dave was talking about?

I love my guns, love having the right to own them; hate the gunnut stupidity that makes it hard to argue otherwise.

So many of the people commenting here are our own worst enemies. Danged if these people can't see that. Danged if these people won't see why they provide a good argument as to why the 2nd amendment is no longer of any use. Danged if they don't provide the best possible ammunition for why people should see them as fixated on the same beetles crawling on the same bark of a single tree while utterly oblivious to the entire forest.

But I'm pretty sure I know what the people here call people who worry about the forest. Tree huggers.

Half this country has a good argument against everything most of these commenters go nuts over. And everytime most of the people here open their mouths, they just dig themselves in deeper.

Fifty-fifty ain't good odds.

Thanx a bunch. Really. I like owning my firearms. So thanx a bunch. You people really were a big help.

bobby binzer

AIRFORCE, I made a mistake.

I looked again and I saw you were not the person with the inane demand for an 'appology' (there seems to be several of those in here).

I see now that as my browser loads slowly, I got parts of the column of comments, and your name on your post appeared at the bottom. I thought it was you. I'm sorry.

But dang, kind of shot myself in the foot, didn't I, railing on you sounding just like some of the fools I was railing against.

Oh but you 'Dave you traitor-this' and 'Dave you traitor-that' twits are not off the hook. Don't even think it extends to there. That kind of stuff is beyond foolishness.

binz

William Stojack

Bobby, Glad you are here to express your opinion. Is there any other point you care to express ? So All of these folks that disagree with your stand are now lumped in a big pile with Pot Pol etc. I read your post twice , but I still cannot see where you are coming from on some of your statements. Obviously you are entitled to them. But they seem to have the feel to them that you also take exception to from others ? I thought that Dave just posted a new column on barrel length ? So the censorship is where ? I have not called for much of anything from Dave____ Wm Stojack

Krusty0369

Binz
WoW! That was a well written disertation. Not that I agree with very much of it but well written none the less. Excuse me for being somewhat more brief in my reply.

Having been around the world more than just a few times and having the seen first hand the results of facist's and other classes of despots I have a somewhat different view of things. Your's is more than just a little niave (I probably mispelled that but I really don't care). Before you talk about US not tortouring people in WWII you should really talk to some of the fine gentlemen who served in that era. There are about 1 Billion people in the world that would love nothing better than to cut your head off with a dull knife. They could care less about rights freedoms and what not. The only thing that matters to them is impossing Sharia on the world. They are well positioned in this country allready and when they decide to kick it off you won't have the luxury of whining into your Wash Post. The only thing they understand is brute force. Unfortuantely America has probably seen her zeinith and she's not going to go down with a crash. It's going be a slow and lingering thing. We're seeing the first signs right now. PC armchair commentators forcing our troops to fight with ludicrous rules of engagement against an enemy that won't even adhere to the low standards of engagement that our Nazi foes followed in WWII. And by the way some of the members of the "Greatest Generation" tortoured the $h!t out some Nazi's if the situation demanded it. But that's just my 2 cents.

Steve Holsten

http://216.22.2.74/cgi-local/ffa2.cgi?noframes Second Amendment Gun Shop's
die Volkenwaffen Kammer
"The Peoples Armory"

Lloyd

http://nimbusters.com/forum/forum.php?board=8

Mike Diehl

I'm a "Fudd" kind of guy who also totally supports "EBR" firearms ownership. I have a serious question ('tho I'm trying to bring out the humour in all this) for the "EBR" crowd.

What's the attraction? If you ever needed to repel an Undead Hoard, wouldn't a .22LR semiauto like the 10/.22 with, say, four or five preloaded 50 round magazines and a low power scope serve your needs better?

William Stojack

Hi Mike, The "word" on the street here is that the Zombies are now wearing goalie masks, fritz helmets & body armor. So I guess that the bottom line is use what you feel best with. And in the latest legislation (HR 1022) both those items would be banned anyway. Heck, the folks in Cal can't have bayonet-lugs ,( there was that rash of drive-bys with them a few years back in Fresno )So your choice is up to you. For now. Wm Stojack

Mike Diehl

Thanks Wm.

I sent in my NRA app form & fee today just to stand with you guys... even though as it turns out HR1022 exempts .22cal rimfire from the magazine capacity limit. Ironic name for that bill don't you think?

Wish the Mini 30 came in a Mini .30-06.

William Stojack

Good job Mike, Yea that is ironic. But don't think about putting a folder on that 10-22 thats an "Evil" feature. The peasants are not worthy. Sad isn't it. If any of this legislation gets over on us, firearms R & D work will die out. Wm Stojack




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