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July 27, 2006

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Why Shooters Don’t Like Licenses

Advocates of tougher gun laws are unable to understand the horror that shooters feel when the word “license” comes up. After all, say the anti-gunners, aren’t drivers licensed? And pilots, and just about anyone who has anything to do with anything that moves? Well, here’s an example why we don’t like licensing, and it happened to a co-worker of mine who had a permit to keep two handguns in his home in New York City.

Mr. M, as we will call him, moved from one borough of New York to another, and as required by law sent in his application for a new license with the new address, along with a money order for $340. Time went by, and nothing happened. When Mr. M called the New York City Police Department, he was told that his permit had been sent to him. Then, after much back and forth, he was told that the permit application had been lost (but not, apparently, the $340 money order). And then he was told that since he had not notified the NYPD of his move, his permit was revoked.

Then followed a Kafka-esque back and forth with the NYPD, who advised Mr. M that since he didn’t have a permit for them, he had to surrender his guns or be arrested. So he did. And, pursuant to Title 38, Chapters 5 and 15 of the Rules of the City of New York, Mr. M requested a hearing, appealing the revocation of his license. He hired a lawyer to represent him and amazingly, the hearing officer found for him. This was on April 3, 2006.

Well, you say, the system works; the system is fair. Not quite. On May 10, a Mr. Thomas Prasso, who is Director (of what he does not say) wrote a letter to Mr. M that says:

“As a result of an administrative hearing held on April 3, 2006. Your license has been CANCELLED. A copy of the hearing report is enclosed.

“This determination concludes the Police Department’s review of this matter. You may appeal this determination by commencing an Article 78 proceeding in Supreme Court within four months of the date of this letter.”

And so Mr. M is out his two guns, which he will never see again, $340 for the money order, and $550 for the lawyer. If he is inclined to spend a lot more money and waste a lot more time, he can indeed pursue an Article 78. But what would you say his odds are of getting his license?
      
Do people go through this kind of s**t when they change the address on their automobile licenses? No, they do not.

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Comments

Greg Russell

JA Demko, you have a lot of anger, damn man.

But ya know, since I`m not votin` one of the commie or socialist 3rd or 4th parties, I`m not voting` demon-crat, Republican is what`s left. And unlike howard dean, I`ve met Republicans I like, and who do work for a living.

As to your fantasy that kerry and Bush have anything in common, you probably still believe the election was stolen from Gore, and that it was his very own medals that the traitor kerry threw over the White House fence.

Does your psychiatrist know you`re on the internet again?

JA Demko

Bush and Kerry move in the same economic circles. Their educational backgrounds are similar. Their circles of friends and acquaintences largely overlap. That's the way it is. You, unless you also happen to be from their social stratum, are nobody to either of them. Bush's good ol' boy act is no more genuine than Kerry's deer hunter act. Both of them move are wealthy, powerful men who interact primarily with other wealthy, powerful people. Unless you are wealthyand powerful, your only value to them is as a photo-op. Your individual vote doesn't have enough value for one them to bother pissing on you if you were on fire.
"And unlike howard dean, I`ve met Republicans I like, and who do work for a living." Statements like this make me question the wisdom of universal suffrage.

Matt

Greg, first of all let me say that I was very optomistic when Bush first got into office and my faith in him skyrocketed soon after 9/11 (like most of the country), but after the past few years, I have begun to wonder how many lead paint chips the guy ate when he was a kid. You think Bush is a real Christian? Then why does he do such a wonderful job of selling our country's soul to the Chinese, who are the largest and most organized persecutor of Christian since the Romans where throwing them to the lions? And remember that Christian Afghan who was sentanced to death? I hardly heard a peep from Dubya and what he did say was pretty much along the lines of "Let the Afghans handle it, even if he does get his head cut off." There were a hell of a lot of Christians pissed with him over that, too. All the guns law that have been discussed Bush has either had a minor role in (Lawfull Commerce) or none at all (Castle Doctrine, more concealed carry, etc). And if you want any more reasons why Bush really pisses me (and a lot of Conservatives) off, take your pick: Dubai Ports deal, Harriet Miers, his absolute refusal to crack down on illegal immigration (thats a biggie with me), an ultr-bloated federal government, the 2004 cluster-f*** royal in Fallujah, etc. The fact that the little toad wart Michael Moore doesn't like Bush is one of the few things he has left going for him.

Jim

For Greg Russell: The expiration of the assault weapons ban was entirely do to the fact that George Bush told the REPUBLICAN congress, he did not want to see it on his desk, period.!!!!!!

Jim

For Greg Russell again, BTW, what I personally would consider as the least powerful revolver for hunting deer is the 357 mag. You could also go with a 45 Colt in a strong gun like Ruger, then you could use light loads for self defense & heavier loads for hunting.

tom

Hey, a really interesting and informed bunch of comments folks! There is little that I could add to it except to say that no, Bush is not really our friend and no politician will ever be. This administration would turn on us instantly if they thought it was to their advantage. All Americans need to have it drummed into their thick heads that the government is all too often the ENEMY! And NEVER to be trusted! That is what the U.S. Constution was written for. That we should NEVER give our government this kind of power! The New York City guy who had his pistols stolen by city government maggots made the basic error of dealing with them in the first place. Speaking for myself, I will never obey any such laws.

JA Demko

"The expiration of the assault weapons ban was entirely do to the fact that George Bush told the REPUBLICAN congress, he did not want to see it on his desk, period.!!!!!!"

You can, of course, document this emphatic assertion with some type of citation? From an autoritative source, I mean, not something that Billy Bob told you down to the VFW.

G Miller

JA Demko, you're full of crap. You keep asking for authoritive sources on every point others make, but it's clear you can't cite any for your points because what you've been spouting shows you're just a plant from the DNC.

JA Demko

"You keep asking for authoritive sources on every point others make"

You, sirrah, are a bald-faced liar. Other than asking for a citation for your exclamation point-laden bovine fecal bolus, I defy to find even one other example of me asking for documentation on this blog.

JA Demko

Pardon me, G Miller, I misattributed "The expiration of the assault weapons ban was entirely do to the fact that George Bush told the REPUBLICAN congress, he did not want to see it on his desk, period.!!!!!!" to you; it was Jim's post. You remain, however, a liar and poltroon.

bobby c

to the guy in new york city who lost his pistol,i live in brooklyn n.y. and also have a pistol permit.if i,ve learned anything in dealing with the license dept.you mail everything certified with a return requested,so they have to sign for mail.second.there are a lot of different opinions about politics and gun laws.so why don,t we take a step back,take a deep breathe,and put our ideas togeher and come up with a plan,for gun rights/politicans and then go down thier throat with both feet.theres a time for talk and a time for not talking.

Eric

Seems pretty simple to me....if you wish to have firearms and not take a bunch of BS, don't live and pay tax in a state, city or township that feels it is their responsibility to monitor and "fee" you to death.

As for the United Nations taking my arms....fine! .....from my cold dead hands.

S Hampton

I think it important to remember that driving, flying, and other related activities are privileges. Owning a gun is a right and you don't charge fees for rights. If the anti's would be concerned with criminals instead of law abiding gun owners it would be great. But that isn't going to happen nor would I ever trust the Schumers, Fiensteins, Clintons, and Kofi's of the world

craig curtis

wow are we done venting in here!! im so glad i live in a small rural town purchase permits are a hassle but our carry permits made it esiar to buy hanguns .if i were the gentelman who got *&%ed in new york id be writing everybody in government from city to state and i wouldnt stop their make waves all the way until heads role oh that pisses me off new york would have to kiss my lilly white american -- then id move . the sherrifs take our money for permits and they never seem to screw things up knock on wood !!!why would you want to live in the big ugly apple anyway good luck with that !

Don Adams

The only people talking up Hillary are the Republicans. They want her to run so they can win again. The only hope any of us have is to vote out whoever is in office. If they have served two (2) terms VOTE THEM OUT!!! The only way to regain control of OUR country is to put term limits on Congress. They won't do it so we have to do it for them. Here in Florida we have a Congressman who has been abandoned by the Republicans. She plans to spend all of her inheritance to get the office of Sen. Bill Nelson(D). Why would someone spend millions of their own dollars to get in office? True, they get a six figure income, but not a seven figure. There must be some big incentive to do that.

Mike

Mr. Hampton

You are so correct....there is a VERY disturbing trend in todays America of restricting law abiding citizens, whilst allowing the convicts to run the institution....so to speak....if we actually PUNISHED the scumbags for being just that, we wouldnt have near the trouble we have today.

But, instead we "reward" those "poor misunderstood humans" that break laws and do nothing more than become breeding factories and expect those that follow the moral path to foot the bill.

Sickening

NOW.....the question before us is this.....HOW do we change and reverse this trend?

More rambling thoughts from Mike

Thanks for you time

Ken

Gee whiz, Guys & Gals---so many political attitudes. For myself, be grateful for what we get and TRUST NO ONE. And by the way, driving a car and some of the other things listed as privileges all come under the heading of the right of _freedom_ to come and go as we please.

Stephen Rider

"Car ownership is NOT a right. Gun ownership IS."

Actually, you have just as much right to own a car as you do gun. The generic term is "property", and Kelo notwithstanding, it is a right in this country.

The 2nd amendment specifies the right to gun ownership, but the 10th effectively specifies that, unless the Constitution says "no you don't" regarding a right, the answer is by default "yes you do".

JA Demko

Car ownership is a right. Use of the public streets and highways, which are owned by The State® is not. You may, in other words, use your personally-owned car to tool about your property in glorious freedom from licensing, speed limits, seatbelt laws, and open container restrictions. You, apparently, have no such right to use the public highways; there are many and various licensing requirements and laws in place to contradict that idea.

Wayne Dougherty

I think this story of bureaucratic screw-up with gun licensing should be presented to antigun groups and politicians. They're always quick to say they support the rights of law-abiding gunners blahblahblah. Put it to them; these are the laws they wanted, press them to address the screw-ups.

Kristopher

Auto licenses and registration only apply to vehicles on public roads.

Are the victim disarmament supporters who make this analogy willing to let anyone ( including teens ) buy any firearm ( including machineguns ) with no paperwork whatsoever, provided the firearm is never worn on public property?

I didn't think so. When Anti-gun losers support my right to own ANY firearm on private property, with no paperwork, then I will take their "automobile license" analogy seriously.

Will Coffman

How many years after the Constitution was ratified did the American people think that riding a horse to get from one place to another was not a right? Why did the fact that technology advanced us to automobiles cause the ability to move from one place to another to cease being a right? And please don't give me this crap about using public roadways, because the assumption ought to be that everybody is paying taxes to maintain those roadways, and you can still have law enforcement arresting people who endanger other motorists, but that doesn't require licensing.
I mean, seriously, think about this. This is the frog in the pot syndrome. We've come to believe that the government needs to license people for everything they do, and yet it protects not a single person. Do you know how easy it is to get a license in most states? It is nothing but a revenue instrument for the government. Licensing for anything is just an excuse to take money from you and give the government a paper trail to hunt you down.

JA Demko

Everybody is paying taxes for military equipment and government office buidings, too. Try taking a spin in an M1 tank or camping on the county courthouse lawn. When the nice men with guns and badges question your activities, tell them you helped pay for it, so you are entitled to use it. Get back to us on how well they accepted that line of reasoning.

Will Coffman

Hey Demko,

Try to imagine that I go pay my own hard earned money to buy a rifle or a car or whatever. That is not the same thing as me breaking into a military base and commandeering an M1A1 Abrams tank. And I never said anything about camping out on property that I and my fellow citizens agreed was to be used as the place we conduct public business.
Use a little more brain power. If that's possible.
This is just so typical of liberals, take any argument on a non-sequitor leg to make it seem like the person you are arguing against is wrong. I admit to your cleverness, but you are wrong on so many levels, it is sad.

JA Demko

What is it about gun-oriented blogs and boards that attracts so many people of certain mindset? That particular mindset works this way:
That person doesn't agree with me.
Therefore, that person is a liberal.
FYI, I am a libertarian. Try to wrap your mind around the idea that there may be more to the political spectrum than Republican and Evil Liberal. I know this isn't what Rush and Hannity told you, but try anyway.
Here's something to think about. Back before there were motor vehicles there were some public roads and some private roads. You paid a toll to use private roads. If there was no public road across a person's property, you either crossed only with his permission, paid a toll, or didn't cross at all. Public, that is government-owned, roads historically were mainly for the benefit of the government. For a well documented historical example of this, read up on just why the ancient Romans put so much time and effort into building roads. Ever since there has been such a thing as government roads, the traffic on those roads has been regulated however much the government that owns them saw fit. Whether you want to believe it or not.
"Try to imagine that I go pay my own hard earned money to buy a rifle or a car or whatever." You are at liberty to drive that car around your yard without a license. You can own it without a license. You simply cannot drive it on public streets and highways without meeting license and insurance requirements. Can you take that rifle you mentioned and shoot it anywhere you please? BTW, why is it that folks like you moan about your "hard-earned" money so much? Do you think Toyota just game me a car? Do you think I woke up and found my guns undeer my pillow one morning? You aren't the only one who works for a living.




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