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October 21, 2008

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Petzal: Gun News from Remington

This past week I was in South Carolina attending a seminar given by Remington, Marlin, H&R, Bushmaster, New England Firearms, and DPMS Panther Arms. These companies are joined at the hip under the name American Heritage Arms. We got so much information in three days that my calcifying brain can scarcely handle it all, but I'll give you what I consider the highlights.

Premier_30rem_ar
First is the .30 Remington AR, a new cartridge that's mated to a new configuration of the Remington R-15 rifle. The .30 Remington AR fills the gap between the 6.8 SPC and the .450 Bushmaster. It bears an amazing resemblance to the 7.92mm Kurz cartridge, which was developed for the revolutionary  German Sturmgewher rifle in 1941. According to Remington, it is a 350-yard deer-hunting load that is roughly the equal of the .308. It comes in three versions: a 125-grain AccuTip boattail, a 125-grain Core-Lokt PSP, and a 123-grain full-metal-jacket practice version. The muzzle velocity for all three is 2,800 fps.

Ar30

Remington will sell you a .30 AR rifle ready to go, or you can get an upper that is compatible with the standard AR-15 lower. The new upper accommodates the .30 AR by means of a modified .308 bolt head and barrel extension, and a modified 4-round magazine box.

All this was so new that we were not able to shoot a .30 Remington AR, but it looks perfect for people who like these rifles and have been hoping for a good deer round.

And a word about the Bushmaster: Its paper ballistics are 250 grains at 2,200 fps, but these figures don't do it justice. We were shooting one at an oversized cast-iron groundhog silhouette at 50 yards. A hit from a .223 would cause the target to sway almost imperceptibly, as though a squirrel had farted at it. A hit from the Bushmaster would lift the groundhog up out of its pivots and dump it on the ground. I like the Bushmaster.

Next time: A new .45/70 from Marlin that is cooler than Sarah Palin.      

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Comments

Jim in Mo.

Remington would like people to think its the equal of the 308. How can they say that? 125 gr bullets vs 150 gr at the same velocity?

jes

Yeah, well, that's the gun game..new and exciting...it sells! Sexy new girl...compare her to: you fill in the blanks...
Me, homespun and faithfull to my .308 but you know the new boys...they want the new toys!
I'm actually glad their coming out with military style guns...if you ever need 'em for more than hunting...you got em..Hopefully, you'll never need 'em, but you never know, do you?
Personally I would shoot their ass end off with my old .30-30 on a bad day in hell before prying off my cold dead hands...if it ever came down to it..but that's just what I'm used to.
The glamor guns in autos are never one I trust when the chips are down..too many jams when all it takes is one at the right time to write your own ass off.
But I'm just an old fart that can shoot an aspirin off your ear if you think otherwise...Happy trails, Dave, and let's hear about that lever gun...

eyeball

I don't suppose there's the slightest chance in Hades that Remington would build one of its AR style rifles as a left-hander...?

And Marlin has a .45-70 rifle cooler than Sarah Palin????? Inconceivable! This we've got to see.

eyeball

I don't suppose there's the slightest chance in Hades that Remington would build one of its AR style rifles as a left-hander...?

And Marlin has a .45-70 rifle cooler than Sarah Palin????? Inconceivable! This we've got to see.

Jim in Mo.

I've got to admit I'm ignorant of these civilian style AR's. Never messed with anything like that after '73. I loved how my M-16 functioned, but hell it probably had a million rounds in it before I had it. It was tested. Has Rem. built any AR's? If not I'd hang back and let all the johnny-come-lately guys buy and cry about the short comings of this gun and let the bugs be worked out. Tested. Something sounds funny when a company trys to sway my opinion about their gun by comparing their new cartridge at 350 yds. to a time proven veteran as in the .308 and do it with a smaller payload.
If I'm gonna buy something these days the Bushmaster has my interest.

dartwick

Did they mention anything about returning Marlin to the production quality it had a few years ago?

PbHead

Dave, thanks for the update. To slow the calcification process of your brain, I suggest; imbide in modest amounts of alcohol, get involved in a youth program, read the classics of shooting literature as if it were the first time you laid eyes on them. If that does not help, then drink heavily so you won't care.

O Garcia

I can hear it already: the .30 Remington AR becomes the new US service round.

The .276 Pedersen finally makes it, albeit with a slightly fatter bullet.

Shane

Jim in Mo. : Not for sure but I believe these Remington AR's are basically Remington badged Bushmasters. Just a bigger market name on a reliable product.

As for Marlin, unless they stop putting that horrid crossbolt safety on lever guns I don't know if I can be won over. I have a 336 built in 1962 that was passed down to me and is my primary deer rifle. The case coloring on the reciever and slimmer stocks (especially the fore stock) are much more attractive. Also IT DOESN'T HAVE A CROSSBOLT SAFETY.

Edward J. Palumbo

With one (lever action) exception, all my rifles are bolt actions and single-shots. As military (-style) autoloaders go, I would certainly hunt with an M1 Garand, perhaps even an M14/M1A, but any variation of the M16/AR does not fit my preferred profile of "deer rifle"...and, yes, I was issued the M16/M16A1/M16A2 and never developed the trust or appreciation of the black rifle that I had in the M1 and M14. Deer rifle? I've never really embraced it as a combat weapon! But I'd use a sword and shield if that's what I was issued, but I continue to believe that nothing less than a 6.5mm should be used as a military cartridge. The 5.56mm should have found it's niche in police armories, or in the hands of varminters. I digress; if the AR is chambered for a decent cartridge and someone is willing to purchase and rely upon it, then it's a marketable product and that contributes materially to the shooting sports we so enjoy. Fortunately, my opinion doesn't affect anyone else who would choose this rifle.
I am curious about Dave's opinion of this cartridge, it's energy, accuracy potentials, and niche in the market. Is it a "contender" or another flash in the pan?

SilverArrow

350 yard deer rifle? Hoping you meant 250, sure an expert will hit consistently in the 8 inch kill zone with such a rifle at 350 yards. The rest of us have no business taking that shot, a marginal hit will result in a wounded animal dying a painful death. The spray an pray shooters will love the thing of course.

With the right loads it may have good application for urban social engagements by law enforcers or our troops though!
SA

eyeball

The Palin comment got me so distracted that I clean forgot to express my appreciation for Remington inventing yet another round. Right now there are about thirty calibers on the market that you have to live near a big city with a Mega-gunmart to buy over the counter. We do this partially for fun, of course, so there's no harm in it. But the greater the blizzard of different cases that provide the same old ballistics, the more my practical side wants to stick to .30-06, .270, and .30-30. In Obamerica, rooney calibers may equal unavailable calibers.

Carney

I'm holding out for the article on the 45/70 that is cooler than Sarah Palin! How Dave got into my guncase to prepare for the story, I'll never know -- but I'm looking forward to what he found out!!!

And for Jim in Mo = ;-)

CPT BRAD

Ok I have a question for Dave. What's so sexy about this new bullet when all the big AR makers make either a AR-10 or an AR-15 in .308 and/or 7.62x39mm? Both have about 10 million rounds already loaded and both have been battlefield tested with excellent results. I hate to be a stick in the mud but how many flavors of vanilla do we need??

jersey pig

this is just my personal opinion so dont anybody get too bent out of shape.

i am a die hard remington fan. the name equals quality and reasonable price in my mind. that being said i have come to despise bushmaster ar-15 rifles. in my limited experience with them on the firing line they are junk. the colt product is far superior. even the rock river arms is a fine weapon. bushmasters either dont feed well or dont extract the fired shell. and no its not the ammo cause we have tried all kinds.

they are even notorious at CIT (critical incident team) training and LEO patrol rifle instructor training here for their notable failures.

even had a friend who wanted an ar. told him to get a colt or really anything but a bushmaster. he went online listened to some guys he didnt know, got talked into a bushmaster. went with him to the range. third shot from the gun failed to extract and the weapon had to be taken apart and eventually the round had to be banged out of the chamber with a brass rod.

i'm sure some of you love the bushmaster product and have never had a problem but i am very disapointed remington has put their name on this.

and what could possiby be cooler than sarah palin?

BJ

Another "Remington" cartridge, Dave? Do you know who Big Green "borrowed" this one from?

Beekeeper

Anything in left hand Dave?

Shane I agree with you that Ralph Nader Cross bolt is an abomination.

Jeff4066

Again?

Several decades ago I tired of the pistol rounds with the "Just as good as a .45" slogans. Then the dozen new "Just as good as a .30-06" rifle rounds. Now it's "Just as good as a .308".

The old Hatcher tables proved that you can only do so much with the math. A sewing needle at 50,000 fps is not as powerful as a .30-06.

I really am beginning to believe that most of the new gear is just marketing. No offense to the fine people a Field & Stream, but some of us don't get excited at every "new" cartridge-du-jour.

Maybe the basic rounds are a bit of "overkill" for some things, but when I'm out with my Remington 700 .30-06, I don't have to think; "Darn! The shot is 270 yards and I only brought my 230 yard gun!".

Which reminds me of the old slogan:
"There's no such thing as overkill. There's only 'Open fire', and 'I need to reload'."

dartwick

You its easy to eliminate.

I wont tell you how to nor will I actually suggest it because it does make the gun more dangerous.

Dan R.

Ok, so everybody's already said it, but a lever-action that is cooler than Sarah Palin??? This I gotta see. Bring on the goods, Dave!

Andrew

Is there any use for another cartridge- other than making money for Remington? I mean a 30 that's almost as good as a 308- there's a gap we needed to fill. I'm sure these outfitters put on a hell of a spread for the gun writers, but I'd hardly call yet another unnecessary bullet good news for those of us not getting a free lunch from the deal.

crm3006

DEP-
WHERE ARE YOUR EDITORS?? Nothing is cooler than Sara Palin!! Lever actions with cross-bolt safeties aren't even in the same area code.
I thought you were making a remarkable recovery from calcifying brain syndrome and advanced gun writer's new product overloaditis when I read your on the money article on the .30-'06 in my November F&S, but it is plain that you have suffered a relapse.
Oh, and BTW, if I happen to run into any cast iron groundhogs that
need killing, I'm pretty durn sure
that I've already got something (possibly the new LH Ruger Hawkeye
in .25-06?)that will lay that varmit low. Cooler than Sara Palin? That would be somewhat akin to a retro world where gun grabbers were regarded as dangerous psycos and the price of gasoline was still around .25 to .27 cents.

SL

I could care less about such guns. If the rambo type guys want such weapons they could have them, but NO one will tell me that they are deer hunting guns. Yeah, they shoot like any other gun, but I see absolutely NO reason why someone would want to hunt with one of these. Maybe I am sounding like old Jim Zumbo, but so be it. I surely won't be converted like he apparently was that these are indeed legitimate hunting guns either! Before the fanatics start chiming in, I fully realize that even the bolt-action was once a military rifle, but there is absolutely no reason why someone with any sense would choose an M-16 with all the springs, moving parts etc, over a simple bolt-action design for something like deer hunting. It would make NO sense in the least.

JBUG308

Why didn't they just make it in .308 Win???
I think it would have been a bigger seller shooting a time tested round like it!!

Richard

If the .30 Remington AR is so similar to the .308, then what's the point? Why bother with a new deer cartridge when we have a number of tried and true ones already?: .30-06, .270 Win, 7mm, etc.




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