On Microstamping and Ted Nugent

Whether I ask for them or not, I am sent e-mails from the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, and sometimes they contain interesting stuff. The latest one informed me that California's legislature has passed a law requiring that all automatic pistols sold in that state after 2010 have their breech faces and firing pins microengraved. This process would stamp the serial number of a gun on the case of any round it fired, enabling the police to trace the firearm from brass left at the scene of a shooting.

According to CTSGV, California is solving only 45 percent of its homicides right now, so they could use some help, and the bill lacks only Arnold's signature to become law. I don't know whether it will solve any crimes, but I do see two likely results: First, neater murderers. The more meticulous among California's killers may actually police their brass after they kill someone, resulting in less litter at a crime scene. The other is a return to revolvers. Is this progress? Who knows?

Also on the Coalition's site was a news item claiming that Ted Nugent, who is a member of the NRA's Board of Directors, threatened Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama with violence while waving a pair of assault rifles. This allegedly happened onstage at a concert in Anaheim, California on August 21. There is even a tape of the event (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ac6_1188154223) you can watch.

I did, and the Nuge does appear to be waving a pair of black rifles, and you hear the occasional bad word, but threats? My understanding is that if you threaten a presidential candidate, the Secret Service comes to have a talk and no one ever sees you again. But as far as I know, the Nuge is still at large.

What is wrong with this picture? Go to www.csgv.org and take a look. Maybe you can tell me.

Comments

[Trae B.]

I like the idea of stamping the guns where the shells leave a number on them and it would work really good but when they told every one their plans over the internet that messed the whole thing up.if people dont know that their gun shells will tell on them if they shoot somebody.then they wont know to pick up their shells.now if somebody shoots someone they will clean up after them selves.

[Blue Ox]

Sure, the Nuge spouted off with some good suggestions, but threats? Please. It's a little somethin' called freedom of speech. Don't like it? Tuff cookies!

[Jeff]

"It would work really good" End quote.

Actually not, how much work do you think it would take to polish off micro engravings on a firing pin or to polish them out of a chamber. Far less time than filing the serial numbers off a stolen handgun which criminals do all the time.

Another feel good measure that will increase the cost of a new gun by $200 and solve zero crimes.

[Devil_Dog]

If it would in fact increase gun prices by $200, then you can chalk up another win for the anti-gun crowd. How many people on the edge of buying a gun would look at that extra $200 and say, "the hell with it", and just not buy. Guns don't need to be banned, you just have to make them impossible to own through restrictions and outrageous prices. Or at least that's the way I see it.

[Mike Diehl]

Nugent: so what?

Microstamping: it's not the nutty idea that some seem to think. If it worked, it would seem to help gun owners, because those of us who use our firearms legally aren't the sorts of people who are going to get into trouble. And while there are some people of the criminal mind that might know enough to polish the microstamps off of their handguns, the plain fact is that most criminals are dumber than a bag of rocks.

"Police their brass?" I doubt it! Much time spent doing that sort of thing will result in crooks being apprehended at the scene.

Was I a California voter, however, I'd ask "what's this going to cost?" I'd ask inconvenient questions like: "How much extra will we now spend at the Crime Lab trying to read and run-down those microstamps?" And "If we're gonna spend money at the crime lab, shouldn't we use it to narrow down the backlog of fingerprints, &c?" And, "Gee, maybe if we permanently jailed the people who persistently break into homes, steal cars, fence stolen property, sell drugs, &c, wouldn't we get a huge reduction in violent crimes anyhow?"

[Trent M.]

The Nuge is a clown. Does he really think that crap helps?

He just furthers the toothless yelling hillbilly stereotype that is already too prevelent.

We need real spokesmen, not show boating rock stars.

This is NOT helping...

[Devil_Dog]

My apologies for a double post, but....

Just pulled this quote straight from the Coalition to stop gun violence (CSGV) website referenced in Mr. Petzel's blog;

"The technology would greatly aid law enforcement officials in investigating homicides and other crimes by allowing them to trace firearms through cartridge casings found at crime scenes (officials would not need to recover the crime gun itself)."

What should be immediately obvious is that anyone could pick up brass from an indoor range and swap it with the crime scene brass. Now even if/when the cops figure out they've been slipped a red herring, you have all that time wasted and an inoccent person hassled by the misdirection. But apparently the CSGV is okay with just finding the brass because that's all you'd really need to find a killer, right?. Kind of makes you wish these people would go play in traffic.

[SilverArrow]

Nugent being Nugent, on the positive side he exhuberantly publicly enjoys hunting and has helped a few of the more open minded glitterati take to the fields. I like his unapologetic style!
Microstamping; either the CSGV and a huge number of Kalifornia law makers are clueless about this thing or they have a different end in mind. Worthless in crime solving. Guaranteed to add to the cost of new semi-automatic handguns OR the manufacturers will simply choose not to sell in Kalifornia either way mission accomplished for the anti's.
SA

[SilverArrow]

Forgot to add; the what's wrong with this picture is that the 'smoking gun' in their webpage is a revolver - unaffected by the proposed law!
SA

[Chris]

Wouldn't you need some type of database to link the gun to the owner? This sounds a lot like a back door registration.

[Gflyz]

This whole issue is asinine and will cost us, shooting enthusiasts, a fortune in the end. Needless to say laws such as this will lead to the gun - not necessarily the shooter. (Jamming up lawabiding citiznens who happen to be in the chain of custody of that particular weapon).

Frankly, we could put RFID tags in all new firearms, paint them bright orange and have to ask police to go the range - and it still woulnd't prevent violence within the seedier element of society - since the criminals don't buy their firearms through legitamate channels.

Criminals are criminals because they don't follow the law. Clearly the brady campaign is run by wonks who see things as they are on paper - not how they are in reality.

BTW: Revolvers, particulary the .38 and .22, are the weapon of choice for criminals anyhow.

[jstreet]

Microstamping wont't work. The thugs will just steal revolvers and shoot you 6 times instead of 15. What a joke!!!

The only point of this legislation is to drive the cost of semi-autos up to the point that people won't pay the price. If you can't ban guns make them so expensive to own that it isn't worth it.

Nugent is over the top, no question. But his heart seems pure and he definetly keeps gun ownership on the front page.

I personally feel someone like Tom Selleck would be a more effective spokesperson for the rights of gun owners. He's well liked by many Americans and presents a good image.

[Buddy]

Sorry folks, but here goes....
I really wish celebrities would stop using their fame to further their stance on any political front. Whether it be Rosie O. or Ted N.
THEIR JOB IN LIFE IS "ENTERTAINMENT!!"!!
I don't need these people trying to sway me either direction. I KNOW where I stand.
It would be interesting to know how many people are now anti-firearm simply because "Best Actor" of the series "Lay 'em all Down!" says guns are bad and only bad people would own them.
Dan Blocker played "Hoss" Cartwright on "Bonanza". I read an article once that Dan stated, "I'll allow my kids to hunt deer when the deer can shoot back!"
Personally, I think Ted Nugent is a fruit cake! Okay, that's just my opinion. I take my hat off to Ted as a bow hunter. I don't like his music, don't like his show! But that's just me! I won't waste my time telling you how I feel about Rosie and her opinions. My dad always told me, "I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of knowing I even care!"(about their opinion)
We need to listen to our own hearts, we need to vote our hearts. We need to listen to reason.
Our lawmakers should be listening to their constituency, not their own agenda! An elected official has no room for an agenda outside his/her own home. He/she should be backing the people they represent instead of deciding, "I'm going to do what's best for them whether they like it or not!"
I am not an essayist, I wish I could write like Thomas Paine when he wrote "Common Sense". Take the time to read his "rantings" at that point in time. Surprising how closely related his ideas are to our current situation!
I'll stop now before I end up saying something even more stupid than I've already said!
Thanks for the opportunity F&S!!

[Gflyz]

Nuge can be a knucklehead at times - but his intensions are good.

Additionally - that video aside - he can be very articulate and persuasive when called upon.

I do think though - that his rant did more harm than good.

[WA Mtnhunter]

Yep, all the LA gangbangers will have to stop "spray down " drive-by's and learn to shoot revolvers well.

My idea of gun control is a well placed double tap from my .357 wheelgun.

Does anyone take Nuge seriously? Watch his TV show and then answer that for yourself.

[007]

Uncle Ted may not have used the best choice of words but at least he has the backbone to stand up for his beliefs and not worry about offending the liberal gun grabbers who "would be king". We could all take a lesson from him and stand up for ourselves and quit being so politically correct. Go get 'em, Nuge!

[Gary]

Ted Nugent is the worst kind of human being--a perpetual juvenile.

His rantings, ravings, appearance, and public disposition do very little to enhance the image of gun owners in America.

Go read the post on his site sometime, the majority of them are fascistic at best.

We really need to find a better spokesperson.

[Walt Smith]

I agree with jstreet's comments completly, micro stamping is a big joke-it will never work like they think it will and every half-smart criminal will find a way around it if it does. whats to stop a criminal from going to a shooting range and picking up a law abiding citizen's shell casings and then dropping them at a crime scene? Presto -instant frame job that would be nearly impossible to defend yourself against.GOOD THINKING BOYS and GIRLS!! And about Nuget, I'm sure he means well but his Bla Bla Bla is better left at his concerts instead of in front of reporters, Tom Selleck would be a much better person for the NRA to have speaking for them especially with a election coming up.

[007]

Maybe we do need a better spokesman but I don't see too many getting in line for the job, too afraid to stand up and be counted.

[James G]

What's to keep someone from driving across state lines and purchasing a non-microstamping firearm? Seems like it will only cost legitimate gun owners who want to buy a new pistol more money.

Smart criminals would just use old guns that don't microstamp and the ones dumb enough to use a microstamping pistol would probably have been caught by doing something else moronic anyway.

[John Russo]

The obvious issue I see on the www.csvg.org site is: one of the pictures in the banner shows a male with his finger on the trigger of a pistol while placing it in his pocket. Is that what you were talking about Dave?

[jack]

Nugent's on-stage rantings are a part of his act. He's doing nothing more than making declarations, not threats. It's a common part of his show - nothing unique in this bit.

As for the micro-stamping, it is easily by-passed (pick up your brass, salt the crime scene with casings from another firearm, use a stolen pistol, use a revolver, use an older weapon)

It has a high "gee-whiz" factor, but a negative public policy rating.

BTW - microprinting is used extensively on color printers. Forensic investigators can identify the serial number of a color printer and trace its ownership through sale and warranty information. (the S/N is micro-printed in yellow ink on white paper on the margin.) So - when printing nastygrams - don't use a color printer.

[jack]

In response to the "what's wrong with this picture?": Is that rifle ammo in the header of a website of an anti-handgun organization?

[Al]

I’m desperately seeking the article of the 10 best gunsmiths, I live in NJ and I’m in serious need of one, long story but to get right down to it my father’s model 70 in 30.06 suddenly won’t hold a group. Leupold has rebuilt the scope, the rings have been inspected, the barrel meticulously cleaned and inspected, along with the crown and no improvement. The gun lugs have also been torqued to specs. It’s been reliable for 40+ years without a terrible number of rounds run through it. Our hand loaded ammunition proves accurate in other rifles and the particular load has been shot out of this gun for 10 + years without any modifications whatsoever Bullets all from same boxes bought by the case, same powders, primers, every charge weighed. Something isn’t right and with all our trying we just can’t lay a finger on it.

[SilverArrow]

Al
Your -06 Suddenly won't hold a group? Sounds like a stock issue; perhaps even a crack but more likely a minor change in the bedding where some of the wood is bearing on the barrel.
Jack
Right on the rifle ammo in the header but does anyone with half a brain expect these gun-grabbers to stop at handguns? I'm thinking I am going to buy a couple of extra 'WristRocket' slingshots to bury because they'll be after those next!
SA

[Black Rifle Addict]

Uncle Ted is all about the publicity;let Freedom of speech ring! Wasn't former NRA President-Mr.Heston-threatened by a rap singer? I don't believe anything came of that? Sounds like the media has a double standard against the NRA, no?

[007]

Amen, Black Rifle Addict! To badly paraphrase a favorite saying of an old friend of mine, if the double standard was cement, the media would be able to build a super highway around the equator. However, don't dare infringe on THEIR right to free speech but it is expendable for the rest of us. Keep on speaking up for the silent majority, Ted, and shame on us for being so.

[Steve C]

The Nuge needs to stuff a sock in it and get his attention deficit fulfilled elsewhere at his own expense. Or give him his lousy show back - anything to keep this fruitcake occupied.

I can appreciate the basic spirit of the thumbprint/stamp concept but that still only traces back to the gun, not the shooter. Like most other “solutions”, it can be circumvented without too much effort and doesn’t get at the heart of the problem.

If all we had were cream pies and seltzer bottles someone would still try to kill you with them.

[alabamahunter]

Ted Nugent is a pain and makes all hunters look bad. I think his intentions are good but he needs to shut up. Man am I glad I don't live in California; or Illinois for that matter. Alabama has some of the loosest gun laws and regulations. I'm 15 and allowed to buy ammo although it is against the law.

[Dr. Ralph]

Buy a bag that attaches to your weapon and catches the empty casings for re-loaders of course, file off your numbers, use a stolen gun whatever... if you are stupid enough to get caught with it they will use ballistics no need for the imprint. Somebody already has a fired bullet from my Smith & Wesson because they sent an empty casing in the box and told me so. No imprint needed they have my gun's ballistic fingerprint. Criminals don't buy new guns and sit around the shop waiting for the results of their FBI background check, now do they? So if the gun isn't found in your Escalade and you didn't buy the Glock new it pretty much is useless to imprint it. This is just Big Brother keeping more guns out of more law abiding citizens' hands and ignoring the illegals.

My wife told me she saw the Motor City Madman tell Osama errr... I mean Obama and Hitlary to suck on an M-16 a while back and I didn't believe her. Guess she was right! Tear them up Ted... I tried to watch the Emmy's on TV last night and it turned into a liberal lovefest montage of W tripping, bumping his head, and then anti war speeches. If anyone as far right as these kooks are left can get some air time I'm all for it. Every time Nuge's show comes on I crank it all the way up. I got you in a "Stranglehold" baby...

[JA Demko]

Nugent is, by and large, an assclown. The fact that he and I are both pro-2A doesn't change my opinion that he is an assclown. Nobody is wrong about everything, and Nugent happens to be right about guns. The problem is that he expresses himself about it in typically assclownish fashion and puts off people who could be swayed to our side. His assclown act doesn't even play well to everybody on our side. I do wish he'd stick to playing his "music" and leave the ambasadorial duties to someone better suited to the task.

[dwight]

Ted Nugent over the top verbally during a rock concert? Shocking. Absolutely shocking.

I would never have expected that from someone known as the Motorcity Madman or from watching "Spirit of the Wild."

Color me shocked. Absolutely shocked.

DEATH BEFORE DISCO!!! ROCK ON!

[Trae B.]

I reckon you dident read my post right blue ox but I said if we dident know that out guns were stamped then we would shoot somebody and leave then the next day we would get arrested and be asking tho cops how they figured out it was us.

[Greg]

Will it really help solve crimes? Maybe not:
http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8163

[William]

The Nuge may have good intentions but he does alot of damage to hunting and gunownerhship image. Good intentions cause more problems in the end than corrupt intentions. My point in case would be just mentioning his name in this article has completely side-tracked us from debating on the real issue in this article-brass serial stamping.

[Todd]

I am the co-invetor of microstamping. Many of the comments are good feedback, but over the last 14 years of development many of the arguments and concerns have been countered by the forensic scientisits who deal with firearm related crime.

As for criminals tampering with the handguns, it is correct, if a criminal has intimate knowledge than they have a chance to inspect the parts, but if they do not have a microscope, than they are limited. However there are levels of redundancy to the technology, even on the pin and the breach. Not to get into specifics, but even if you remove 90% of the codes the last 10% will be able to give you the entire code.

Next the code is linked to the make, model, date of manufacture and serial number, which means law enforcement will be able to identify the make, so they can call and run a standard trace to find that info.

As far as law abiding citizens are concerned the system stays the same and the manufacturer holds all the codes. The status quo is retained, no new systems or databases. All remains within the firearm manufacturers facility.

As for criminals in general, from what has been stated by the forensic community, common and gang related criminals do not tend modify the firearms ballistic signature. When they try they usaully do not sufficiently change the unique characteristics. In one case a serial killer, I was told modified the handgun after every murder, however he never touched the firing pin.

As for the technologies goal: the most important crime fighting tool as we have been told is extracting rapid intel.

Being able to identify the firearm to allow the trace to take place, inorder to find the source. From law enforcements point of view, trafficking of firearms is committed in a set pattern. the idea is to ID the firearm, the first time it is used, so that they can understand the trafficking pattern while the timeline is short and the lead is still hot, i.e. time-to-crime.

The idea is by using current modern methods of law enforcement such as link analysis and social networking they will be bale to begin to focus resources to tackle theft rings who target law abiding gun owners, target gang related trafficking and crack down on straw purchasers who tend to have links to these types of criminal organizations.

As for cost, the process is based on standard CNC equipment. Our latest cost estimate, which is based on our work in semiconductor and commercial inkjet printer components is approximately 50 cents per surface in volume production, which means with a healthy markup by the firearm industry, it could add about $2.00 to the price.

I view this as a white hat technology. Initially when we approached this we were aksing to field test it on the firing pin only, the reason it is now two surfaces is because the NSSF stated that the only issue was survivability. So, the law makers came back with a new bill for two surfaces.

What is humerous is that I have handed several firearms to some very intellegent people and they have not been bale to take the firearms apart. I agree, the people who make good arugments have specific knowledge, but we are talking about common criminals.

I still think this technology is the type of benign and beneficial technology development that the industry could use to assist law enforcement.

We are also providing a royalty free license to the technology for commercial firearm sales, so the firearm industry will not have to pay a royalty on a per gun basis for the life of the patent. They can also come up with their own techniques as well.

I am not sure how this will go in California, but I do think it is an opportunity for the firearms industry. You can believe it or not, that is ok.

The industry almost had ballistic imaging for new guns, and that technology was truely bad news. NY and MD are good case examples of the alternative.

I think many people think ballistic imaging is gone, but the reality is a new 3D mapping system is being developed and field tested, in MD I think current imaging costs gun owners a $20 fee and it costs the industry a similar price to make sure the casings get into the package.

Microstamping is a inexpensive alternative to the whole idea of ballistic imaging of new firearms and since the indsutry controls the data, i.e. the codes, than there is no registration.

As for the arguments of littering crime scenes with spent cartridge casings, the forensic community laughs at that argument. They state that firearm ejection patterns, bullet locations and angles of impact, chemical analysis of gun shot residue would quickly isolate the obviously planted cartridges. But, they also said they are not sure planting cartridges would be a problem, since it would provide further leads. i.e. the cartridges would have had to come from a firing range, some ranges have video cameras and the owner of those cartridges would know which range he fired hem from, providing further leads or opportunities for eye witnesses of people pikcing up cartridages. The other thing was many times by handling those cartridges, further fingerprints could be found as well.

Remember, the cartridges planted would have to be the same make model, powder, primer and fired from the same model firearm. that is a tall order for a common criminal to go find, he would also have to find a cartrdige microstamped.

I also saw a good question on the blog talking about what it will cost for the forensic lab. In general, even if a current case is a cold case, i.e. No witnesses, but cartrdiges at the scene, they have to fully process the evidence. As for the cost to run down the trace, that is typically done by the BATF, they have dedicated teams where that is their job. From what I have heard, they want to focus on certain areas, and by getting fresh intel, they feel they can focus their resources more efficiently to target hotspots.

People have also been cocnerned about the police targeting them as suspects if their gun is stolen. The reality is for instance, if my gun is stolen, and it is recovered at a crime scene .. well no matter what I am getting a knock at the door. However, I would file a report if my gun was stolen, so this woul dnot be an issue.

Same situation if my gun was microstamped and stolen as well. However, what this allows police to understand is if there is a theft ring in my area or to understand if there is a theft ring who are staking out gun shops or firing ranges looking to follow people to their houses to case the house and await a time to break in a steal firearms. It's all about INTEL in real time.

If you look at the bill, this is really a field test. It only applies to new models of semiauto handguns from 2010 on, not pre 2010 models at least that is what I am told. Also, the technology is not rocket sicence, the surfaces that currently make marks that are used for forensics are the same surfaces being used. What is good about the technology is that it augments the exisitng methods, it does not replace them.

Just my thoughts from a gun owner from NH.

As for Nugent, not sure it helps, but if it gets the liberals upset, it can't be half bad. I have heard worse statements from their side of the isle.

Sincerely,
Todd

[Devil_Dog]

Some questions that immediately enter my head are:

1. Do criminals buy brand new handguns that would carry the stamps? If so, then success. However, I feel that the more likely scenario is that they simply buy a cheaper used handgun, or steal an older model that would not have the stamp.

2. I don't buy for a minute that based on powder and primer residue present at a scene you can quickly say, "aa-hah, planted brass" It just seems like there would be no way around chasing this false lead, and no way that you wouldn't lose time and be hassling an innocent person. Most people buy the value box ammo like Winchester USA for target practice, much the same as a criminal would likely end up this type of ammo because he's just buying whatever is available at Wal-mart

[SilverArrow]

Todd
"White hat technology" ??? Hardly!

Your post does make some good points but I still see this act as one planned to create an additional hassle for legal gun owners as well as additional cost. I seriously doubt that per unit costs will be as low as you indicate -- even supplying our military and police the volume of semi-automatic handgun production is not high enough. Remember; semiconductors and inkjet printer components are being turned out by the bazillion units.

Will microstamping solve any additional crimes? Current forensic technology is a major factor in putting the bad guys behind bars these days. Will the added layer of evidence really make a difference?

The BIG ISSUE is this; to use the information from those microstamped casings law enforcement has to access a DATA BASE of gun owners... defacto national registration. That is no White hat!

Thoughts from another Granite State hunter/gun owner!
SA

[Loel]

After watching Nugent both sides -anti & pro- gun are starting to scare me.

[Blue Ox]

I'm with ya, Trae. They spilled the beans a little too early. It's kinda like announcing that you're putting your hand in the cookie jar right before you get caught.

[Blue Ox]

Almost forgot...
LONG LIVE WHEELGUNS!

[Trae B.]

sorry blue ox I ment for my smart remark for jeff.but when you look at it this way it it just puts more irritation on killers because after they stoot someone they have to clean up their shells.that would be funny,a murderer having to move a stove because a gun shell rolled under it.

[paul Wilke]

Ted Nugent = entertainer, nuff said!

[Clay Cooper]

Al

STOP! You’re wasting your time and money on that ol’06!

It’s not your stock, it’s not your load or anything else but your barrel, that 06 needs a new barrel. 40 years of shooting? Hell’ I’m surprised it lasted that long! LOL!
You got your use out of it like a set of tires; Al. That’s how barrels go. It’s like having a blowout on your truck! Shot out three barrels and they all went like that not counting the others I’ve witnessed.

[Clay Cooper]

On Micro stamping and Ted Nugent?
First of all, Microstamping is a joke. It’s too easy for the cartridges to wear the serial number off. Not only that, as the casing rotates in and out of the chamber, you will not get a good impression of the serial numbers.
Ted Nugent? It’s ok for the left to say that the President should be shot with a 44 Bull Dog. As Uncle Ted will say, “IF YOU DON’T LIKE HOW LOUD HIS GUITAR IS, THEN DON’T COME IN!”
“Uncle Ted, You are a Great American Sir!
Sure is funny watch the left react when the shoe is on the other foot!
Want to see a liberal have a melt down? Challenge them! Have them prove what they say is right! No hearsay, cannot coin their draconian leaders preset lines what to say messages and no foul language! I love it when Uncle Ted and Tom Selleck go head to head with a liberal!
A couple days ago, a couple said Bush sucks! Ok bush sucks? Why does he suck? They could not in anyway shape or form tell me intellectually why Bush sucks!

[Mike Diehl]

Hey Clay. When did "The Left" say "It’s ok for the left to say that the President should be shot with a 44 Bull Dog." Who said it and when? When was that person made "The Left's Press Secretary?" Links please.

[Tommy]

Wow, Clay and Mike? This looks like it could get interesting.
Clay, What say you? I believe Mike asked a question, and I would love to read the reply.

[Tommy]

Clay,

Do you know anything about an oil pipeline from Turkey that had to be redirected through Afghanistan because Saddam wouldn't play ball a few years back? Shame he didn't stay in line with us after we put him in power and all. And I don't care which party was in power when it happened - it matters not.
What about how the Bush's have been in bed with the Saudi's since like...forever? What about how the Saudi's own over 6% of America - how 'bout that old bud. The Bush's don't seem to worry about that at all. In fact they seem to love it. Its good for business.
Stockpiling weapons of mass destruction huh? Bio weapons, chemical weapons, where are they again. Oh thats right - the Iranians and Syrians took them. We had mountains of visual evidence when we were trying to persuade the United Nations to act with us on Iraq. Do we have any evidence at all of the Iranians or the Syrians hiding weapons for the dead man Saddam?

You are a military man Clay - Please rescue me from my ignorance.

[Tommy]

I really don't give a hoot about whether someone is a liberal or a conservative. I care about their actions - alone. I would say there are plenty of people with very legitimate gripes about George Jr., whether or not some inarticulate lefty couldn't persuade you.

[Tommy]

Oh and too bad Ted's guitar has nothing to do with the FACT that many hunters think he is doing great dis-service to our tradition of hunting. I am among them. Let your actions speak - not your vocabulary at screaching decibals.

[Tony O]

this country does not need tighter gun control. period. thats it. what this country needs is responsible gun control.

[Tony O]

this country does not need tighter gun control. period. thats it. what this country needs is responsible gun control.

[Tony O]

this country does not need tighter gun control. period. thats it. what this country needs is responsible gun control.

[Clay Cooper]

Mike Diehl, the statement was made by the antigun side during Bush’s first run for office. It was on national network.

[Clay Cooper]

Tommy rescue you from your ignorance?

First of all I don’t think you are ignorant at all Tommy. The problem is this; those in the Middle East and Russia fight wars differently than we do. They use propaganda and the shell game to fight and hide the wrongs they do have. Both Russia and china had boots on the ground in Iraq. Preparing them for what’s to come. Both Russia and China had sold illegal war equipment and supplies to Iraq. The Soviets and China are the best when playing poker when they have a losing hand. China and Russia didn’t want to step in to help Iraq, so what better way to win is to use reverse Psychology on the western world. It’s all a cover up to hide what Saddam really had.

Lets not forget the 2 Russian Kilo Class subs that Al Gore knew being sold to Iran against the arms embargo and did nothing.

[KM]

haha, way to go Nuge

[KM]

haha, way to go Nuge

[Clay Cooper]

“I am in support of the NRA position on gun control.”
-Bill Clinton, 1982, in a letter to the NRA

“America has many more guns than England, and a lower violent crime rate. Switzerland has many more guns than Germany, and a lower violent crime rate. England had much less crime in 1900, when the nation had no gun laws, than it does in 2000, when England has some of the most repressive gun laws in Europe. Gun prohibition leads to boldness by criminals, and passivity by the innocent - and therefore to many more violent crimes committed against the innocent.”
-David B. Kopel, in an interview with Carlo Stagnaro for Zola Times 2000-Oct-23

“One man with a gun can control 100 without one. [...] Make mass searches and hold executions for found arms.”
-V.I. Lenin, from Collected Works, Vol. 35, 4th ed., p. 286. Congressional Record, April 28, 1970, p. H3601

“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
-Col. Jeff Cooper, from The Art of the Rifle

“But I don't want to defend myself.”
-reportedly uttered by a Brady Law supporter

“To disarm the people--that was the best and most effective way to enslave them.”
-George Mason, founding father who led opposition to adoption of the US Constitution before the addition of the Bill of Rights

“A free people ought [...] to be armed [...]”
-George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790, printed in the Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790

“[...] we agree with the National Rifle Association that assault weapons right now play a small role in overall violent crime.”
-A Handgun Control, Inc. representative, in Congressional testimony

“... protection of life is NOT a legitimate use for a firearm in this country sir! ... Not! That is expressly ruled out!”
-Allan Rock, Canada's Minister of Justice, VCR taping at the Triwood community centre in Calgary, Dec. 1994

“The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, bows, spears, firearms or other types of arms. The possession of these elements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues, and tends to permit uprising.”
-Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Shogun of Japan, August 29, 1558.

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.”
-Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

“With all the political hysteria being whipped up this year about school shootings, more children are killed each year by bee stings -- and far more are killed by airbags mandated by the government.”
-Thomas Sowell, NewsMax, 1999-Sep-30

[Clay Cooper]

Mike Diehl, looks like I stand corrected and the original info was wrong. This what I did find.

“So what is the first thing he would do to decrease violent behavior? Quick answer. `We've got to dismantle the NRA.' And what to do with Charlton Heston? `Shoot him - with a .44-caliber bulldog," he says with a laugh.”
-Howard Feinstein, New York Post writer, reporting the views of (racist, rich, peddler of psychopath training films, black, and establishment Liberal) Spike Lee, in "Spike Takes On 'Sam' & The NRA" (New York Post, 1999-May-22 - Feinstein interviewed Lee at the Cannes Film Festival in France; the type of handgun Lee identifies was used in the Son of Sam slayings)

[Clay Cooper]

Check this out

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/intro4.html

[Mike Diehl]

Fair observations, Clay. But look, the H-wood types can't really be taken as the "official spokesmen of the Left" any more than the more hostile reactionaries can be taken as an official spokesmen for the right. We can all find crazies following one political camp or another.

[tat2tom]

Ted is a great rocker,but being on the board of the NRA,he should be held to a higher standard. He just gave "the anties" lots to talk about....

[Dr. Ralph]

Alec Baldwin said on Conan O'Brien in 1998 during Clinton's impeachment trial we should stone Henry Hyde to death and go to his home and kill his wife and children. Hyde was a republican who had stated that it was the House of Representatives duty to impeach Billy-Bob for perjury... It was Spike Lee who said Charlton Heston should be shot in the head with a .44 Bulldog, Son of Sam's personal choice of weaponry. Nice revolver that will fit in your front pocket... really hard to hit with though. Celebrities have been known to say strange things. Perhaps that is why we are drawn to them. Look it up yourself Diehl...

[Rocky Mtn Hunter]

O BOY; What a mess we got. How can any good sportsman believe the stage idiot "UncleTed? Of all the stage clowns, he wins hands-down. Glade to know Tebby Boy is on board of Directors of NRA. Now can cancel my subscription with 2 other magazines. As I;ve stated before, the Next Prs, be it Hillary or Osbam??? they will be too busy ytying to get our country back on tract and end this winless BUSH war, that they will not have the time to worry about us few gun owners. What Brain Storming Idiot came up with stamping yrh shell casings? Since when did croks go to a legit gun store?ast time I read news paper was full of armed robers. Crooks will steal all they need. Best we keep our firearms in a safe or vault, but get a CC Permit and sleep with it. Tell Teddy Boy to take his pole and string and crawl back into his cave. We sure need a better spokesman tham him or we will all go down without a Vote. O for the Midia to be out in full force on JAn. 20th 2009, when the 2 Clintons sworn in and Bushie flys to Crawford to his Chainsaw. o be sure and buy Ted's next recordings rather than some Ammo.

[Mike]

Ted Nugent is an embarrassment to the sporting community and needs to just keep his mouth shut. He feeds into the inbred hillbilly stereotype that already gets in the way of important causes.

Anyone who buys into this guys B.S. needs a brain scan.

[Clay Cooper]

Mike Diehl, I agree with you, however. There are to many of those that believe Hollywood is there Golden Cow, A GOD to worship and follow! To me NOT!

[Clay Cooper]

Rocky Mtn Hunter, you say what?

Mike,

Mike, have you ever watch Ted Nugent go head to head with those on the left? He was on the O’Rielly Factor shortly after that concert and they had a excellent dialog. It’s to bad the left cannot do the same!

TED NUGENT, MUSICIAN: I was in Chicago last week. I was in Chicago. I said, "Hey, Obama! You might want to suck on one of these, you punk!" Obama, he's a piece of (expletive deleted), and I told him to suck on my machine gun. Let's hear it for him!
And then I was in New York. I said, "Hey, Hillary! You might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless (expletive deleted).

KASICH: South Dakota officials have reportedly asked the rocker to tone it down at the state fair show there this weekend.
Ted Nugent joins us now on the phone from Waco, Texas. His new CD, "Love Grenade," will be released on September 4.
Hey, Ted, why'd you do this?
NUGENT: John, because rock 'n' roll is too much fun.
And let me just say a happy Labor Day to you.
But trying to explain the intensity of over the top outrageous irreverent rock 'n' roll is like trying to explain an orgasm to a eunuch. If some people don't get it, I am not here to help them through the quagmire.
You realize that when Mick Jagger rode a 40-foot inflated phallic symbol onto stage, he didn't explain anything to anyone. That was not political commentary. It was over the top, intense, hysterically funny rock and roll. And anybody who doesn't get it, drive safely.
KASICH: Well, Ted, I know rock 'n' roll. You know that I know rock 'n' roll. But frankly, I mean, that was, like, such a crude thing. You know, like some kind of fourth grade stuff, like you know, these things you said were — they just weren't right.
I mean, why — did you ever think these people — what about Obama's kid hearing that? What do we tell him? "Well, it's just rock 'n' roll?”
NELSON: I don't know. What do you tell the children of soldiers who have sacrificed their lives when Obama claims that their daddies are raiding innocent civilians over there?
Come on, John. Let's get our priorities straight. With all due respect, unless you've been to a Ted Nugent concert lately, you don't know the intensity.
By the way, we're selling out every concert on this "Love Grenade" tour. And I do exactly what the good Marine Corps taught me every night. And I do PG-13 concerts for the state fairs and the county fairs and all these different family events that I've been selling out. Because I want to make sure I do the right thing.
An outrageous, over the top rock 'n' roll event like the House of Blues, John, as long as no laws are broken and no one gets hurt. Nothing is sacred.
KASICH: Well, no, I understand you say you have free speech. But you do say you want to run for office. Now how would you like your family — I guess I'm sensitive about it, Ted, because see, I've been the target of this kind of stuff. Not from the — well, sometimes from the right, but mostly from the left.
NUGENT: John, what kind of stuff? What do you mean, target of humor?
KASICH: Personal attacks. I mean, this is a personal attack, what you did on these people. This was not like, you know, Obama is out there and, you know — I mean, look, I just went into it and attacked John Edwards. I try to do it, however, on the basis of the policy, on the issues.
Because what's happening, Ted, in our culture today is that politics is being ruined because people are being polarized because of the personal attacks and innuendoes being labeled at people.
And I know you love your country. I'm just telling you, this kind of stuff contributes to it. Don't you think it does?
NUGENT: John, you know, I really respect your take. You do a great job whenever you stand up for things you believe in. They're the same things that the Nugent family and all good conscientious American families believe in.
But to try to make a comment in a meaningful and sincere way from the rock 'n' roll stage is really apples and grenades. When I want to make a personal comment about Obama or Hillary or anyone else, I will do so in an environment such as this where I will articulate the issues, you know, lick for lick. I'm not going to rant on the O'Reilly show, but on the rock 'n' roll stage, I'm going to be...
KASICH: These weren't issues. I mean, you were telling Obama to suck on your machine gun. And Hillary to ride, you know — come on. I mean...
NUGENT: By the way, you know, I mean, John, Alice Cooper didn't really cut off his head with the guillotine on stage. And Sam Kinison really didn't believe in sex with a Volkswagen Beetle.
We're talking about stage outrage. And once again, God love you, John, but some people don't — you know, just this week, John, since this has aired — by the way, I've been saying this on stage for about eight years now. Do you know that again this week, I was invited by a family who has a terminally ill daughter who want me to take her hunting?
And you know, if a family with the terminally ill daughter thinks I'm OK — because you understand the outrage, and I don't need anyone else's stamp of approval.
KASICH: I'm not trying to — I'm not getting into questioning what kind of a guy you are here. I'm saying...
NUGENT: Everybody else is.
KASICH: What I'm saying is this should be out of bounds, because you do love your country. You do want us to address some of the serious problems in this country.
I've got to tell you, Ted, none of it can happen when we're spending all of our time viciously attacking people on either side. And it's happening all of the time. So why don't you just take that part out and have more fun doing other things?
NUGENT: Well, you know, it's coincidental, John. I take your advice to heart. I've been giving that advice to everyone from my brother and others, as well, who by the way, avoid rock 'n' roll concerts because they think my guitar is too damn loud.
KASICH: No, I don't think that. I know — you know, I know some of the stuff that you did. I know who Ted Nugent is.
I'm just saying Ted, when you're there for the music, why not play the music? Why not be wry? Why not do things that are fun? But, you know, let's not tell that — look, we are too many enemies in politics. You know it. We spend our time trying to figure or how to destroy people. We don't destroy the candidate, we go after their wives, their spouses. We go after their kids. You need to be a leader in this.
NUGENT: Well, you know, I would be more than happy to have a legitimate and sincere, well-researched dialogue with Hillary, Obama, anyone in a real environment of honesty and integrity.
On stage, it doesn't qualify. On the rock 'n' roll stage — and again, John, you can — many others seem to be resisting what literally tens of millions of people in America.
Come to TedNugent.com and you'll see that the response to this "Love Grenade" tour, with this hyperbious, over-the-top, outrageous, irreverent humor, is celebrated with cheers and laughter every night.
Coincidentally, John, as I finish up my "Love Grenade" tour in the next week, the next five shows that we wrap up the tour happen to be PG-13.
KASICH: OK, there you go.
NUGENT: That's coincidental, but I will take your advice to heart.
KASICH: You think about it. You think about it.
NUGENT: I'm always thinking.
KASICH: All right, Ted. Hey, listen, good luck on the rest of the tour. I'm sure they're going to join you out in South Dakota. Thanks for coming out tonight.
NUGENT: And happy Labor Day.
KASICH: All right. Thank you.
Watch "The O'Reilly Factor" weeknights at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET and listen to the "Radio Factor!"

[Clay Cooper]

Ok sports fans there you have it!

Just imagine a left-winger in that conversation instead?

Total MELT DOWN!

[SilverArrow]

Nugent being Nugent. No different than Rosie being Rosie, Oprah being Oprah, Spike Lee being an a'hole, Howeird Stern being a total A'hole, George Cluny being a political pawn; etcetera, etcetra, etcetera! For every celebrity on the right there are at least two on the left.

When he wants to be, Nugent is an articulate, educated man; he doesn't back down. Ted Nugent has as much right to speak up for what he believes as every other American. One doesn't go to a Ted Nugent concert expecting him to invite Bill, Hilary, Barack, the 2 johns, and Nancy Pelosi up on stage to join him in singing Kumbayah!
SA

[charlize theron]

Just because one has the right to say something idiotic doesn't mean one should say something idiotic. Nugent has in the past (and may still, I don't know) host a hunting event/festival of sorts called "The Rape of the Woods." To equate hunting with a horrid act of sexual violence is stupid. In his desire to be sensational he actually damages the very activity for which he proclaims his love and devotion.

[Tommy]

Clay,
Thank you for your compliments again. But I have to side with Mike on this one.
I think we all love Nuge for fighting for some of our rights. It is the extreme way he comes across on some issues hunters do not agree on totally that irk many of us. Just like many of you have talked about extreme views here concerning the libs and the conservatives. He needs to tone it down, and I wish his stance on high fence were different.

[Tommy]

Oh yeah Clay - by the way,

Took a 3-1/2 yr old doe last night with the old PSE out back. She went straight down, seriously. I have never seen a deer go straight down from an arrow. The 125 muzzy with the tocar tip did the job. I was surrounded by a spike and three fawns the entire time I was on stand. Got her about 6:45 and obviously there was no tracking required. First deer of the year was a dandy.

[Tommy]

Clay,

What I neglected to reveal in my last post was that I missed two already due to clipped branches. I like to hunt the thick stuff. I figured I should humble myself a bit.

Later

[Dr. Ralph]

Man am I getting the fever... Tennessee's bow season opens this Saturday and yesterday I saw a 10 pointer. I just wish it wasn't 80 degrees outside.

[Clay Cooper]

Tommy
Congratulations SHOOTER!
One the Girls at work Husband is from the Dominion Republic and his father is visiting. We went out Sunday evening to the area I’m going to hunt and counted over 130 deer. I also let them shoot my M1A. They burned up 100 rounds of M118 ammo and they had a riot of a good time! After we departed the area, everyone was quite all the way back home exhausted and overwhelmed with a great evening.

About Uncle Ted, I find myself still on the fence on this one. There was no ill harm or threats made to O’Bomba or SHllary. He is loud and in your face I must agree. One thing, I don’t see the left going after him. Reminds me when another student strikes back at the school bully. A week ago I watched Shooter on DVD and at first I thought this was going to be a great movie, NOT! When the director of the movie has taken a National Hero, a Marine to assist in the assassination of the President of The United States was bad enough. Then to top it off with, turning him into a victim? That went over the top times two!

The bottom line is this; there is in fact a double set of standards. The left say we cannot do this, yet it’s perfectly fine for them to do it. They remind me of a Police station that goes and arrest bad people, yet the dirty Cop goes unchallenged by the Police Chief and the Mayor.

The difference between a Democrat and Republican is that when a Democrat should be fired? They make them their leader! Go figure that one out?

Think About it!

Just food for thought.

[Clay Cooper]

It is a proven fact that the Democratic Party made the U.S. lose Vietnam and the problems we now have in Iraq. If you don’t believe that, then you need to educate yourself with the facts instead of the hearsay of those that oppose it.

Fact, Vietnam was going to surrender within 3 months until

Upon hearing Cronkite's editorial, President Lyndon B. Johnson is said to have told an aide, "If I've lost Cronkite, I've lost Middle America." Although it is known today that the Tet offensive was a crushing military defeat for the communists, public support for the war effort began to erode in the months that followed. The United States withdrew combat forces from South Vietnam in 1973, and in April of 1975 South Vietnam fell.

-General Giap, North Vietnam (memoirs)
"What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battles of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice your media were definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!"

As the TET offensive continued into February, the anchorman for the CBS evening news, Walter Cronkite, traveled to Vietnam and filed several reports. Upon his return, Cronkite took an unprecedented step of presenting his "editorial opinion" at the end of the news broadcast on February 27th. "For it seems now more certain than ever," Cronkite said, "that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate." After watching Cronkite's broadcast, LBJ was quoted as saying. "That's it. If I've lost Cronkite, I've lost middle America."
(Almost, since the first day's of the invasion of Iraq, many Democrat leaders and the US news media have been saying [everyday] that the US is losing the war in Iraq and that it is another Vietnam. In April 2008, Senator Harry Reid proclaimed to the world that America has lost the war in Iraq. After over four years, this negative attitude has impacted the American war effort greatly by influencing the morale of the terrorists as well as the morale of America's troops.
On the TET battlefields, the Vietnamese communists suffered a total of 144,461 casualties. Back in 1968, it's a fact that the communist leadership were seriously thinking of calling an end to the war. But the Communists saw the reaction the increased American casualties had on the American News Media, American anti-war protestors and the American people, so the communist leadership decided to continue the fight.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Generals/giap.htm
In his book, communist leading General Vo Nguyen Giap clearly indicated that NVA troops were without sufficient supplies, and had been continually defeated time and again.
By 1968, NVA morale was at it's lowest point ever. The plans for "Tet" '68 was their last desperate attempt to achieve a success, in an effort to boost the NVA morale. When it was over, General Giap and the NVA viewed the Tet '68 offensive as a failure, they were on their knees and had prepared to negotiate a surrender.
At that time, there were fewer than 15,000 U.S. casualties, the Vietnam War was about to end, as the NVA was prepared to accept their defeat. Then, they heard Walter Cronkite (former CBS News anchor and correspondent) on TV proclaiming the success of the Tet '68 offensive by the communist NVA. They were completely and totally amazed at hearing that the US Embassy had been overrun. In reality, The NVA had not gained access to the Embassy--there were some VC who had been killed on the grassy lawn, but they hadn't gained access. Further reports indicated the riots and protesting on the streets of America.
According to Giap, these distorted reports were inspirational to the NVA. They changed their plans from a negotiated surrender and decided instead, they only needed to persevere for one more hour, day, week, month, eventually the protesters in American would help them to achieve a victory they knew they could not win on the battlefield. http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/7624/Generals/giap.htm

[Chad Love]

Ted Nugent, like any other talking head/entertainer, is in the business of selling Ted Nugent. He's not any different from say, Ann Coulter, Bill Maher or any of the seemingly thousands of chatterheads flooding the ether these days.
Do you honestly think he could make any money with civility and reason?
I think the guy's an ass and a detriment to our image, but on the other hand I don't blame him for it. He's simply a reflection of our modern political and social climate, sort of a hairy bellwether of who we've become.
Of course, I guess it's the medium as well as the message that's changed. The printed word is, let's face it, dying, replaced by the neverending cycle of vitriol and fraction that passes for our news and information these days.
Would the 'Nuge survive in a world where we all bothered to read once in a while? I think not.
Got my F&S yesterday and read the editor's letter about the death of Hugh Grey. While he was about a decade or so before my readership time, I certainly remember the writers he oversaw, most of whom have been well-anthologized. Not a loud-mouthed rock star among them (although I guess Ruark was something of a celebrity).
Those guys were thinkers, not spouters. Nugent is a self-aggrandizing spouter tailer-made for an unthinking self-absorbed public.

[Tommy]

Clay,

I think we can blame alot of things on dems and alot of thing on reps. It is the inablity to do so; the hard party lines, lobbyists, and special interests groups that keeps the staus quo. And that is not great at present.

Just a thought.

[Clay Cooper]

Tommy

So true, how do you fix something that is in tailspin without scraping it and starting all over again? The problem is so vast, where do I start in this political category infinite hurricane? When one must argue what the definition of is, is

The good news is, the worse it gets the closer the end time is and Jesus is coming!

[Tommy]

I think it would be easy Clay. But it would piss alot of rich folks off. Campaign finance reform. Not a juiced up version with PORK BS, but simply make sure everyone has the same money allotted to run.

JUST BECAUSE ONE GUY HAS MORE MONEY THAN ANOTHER DOES NOT MEAN HE SHOULD BE ALL OVER THE PLACE AND ANOTHER GUY WITH LESS MONEY, WHO MAY BE MORE INTERESTED IN GETTING THINGS RIGHT IS HARDLY HEARD.

Start there, and soon things will even out a bit. Then Jesus can stay where he is - for now.

I have many more ideas.

[Tommy]

Lets look at wages.

Should a man that works 40 hrs a week - a hard worker - make so little he will have to work into his 60s or 70s to live somewhat comfortably; while another man works 40hrs, a more educated man, who had far more going for him in the beginning of his life, (social status of family, certain inheritance, location) makes 4 or 5 times as much?

I know this gets into socialism and capitalism. I read and re-read ''Atlas Shrugged'' and ''The Fountain Head''. You know Ayn Rand?

I just think there is a middle ground there and we have to find it soon.

[Chad Love]

Say what? So just screw it all and let Ju-Ha-Sus (how do you know when you're in the Bible Belt? When Jesus is spoken as a three syllable word) sort it out, huh?
Fine, you keep your ideology and I'll keep mine. I have my children's future to think of so I'll limit my thinking to what we can do down here on Planet Earth.
As far as I'm concerned the rapture can't come soon enough...

[Tommy]

How about education?

Our education ranks are falling compared to the world and our big businesses are farming out jobs. Those are facts. While at the same time our government is spending millions, make that billions on PORK and pet projects.

This has to stop.

[Tommy]

Yet all we hear about is freaking OJ.

WHICH MEDIA OUTLET DO YOU LET SPIN THEIR VIEWS TOWARDS YOU? THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT DO IT. They have their favorite outlets.

We must make up our own minds and stop letting others do it for us. We are a competent nation of proud brave men and women. Its time we started acting like it.

[Dr. Ralph]

Tommy when we all make the same money where is the motivation to perform? Take the money out of campaigning and you get what the liberal media wants you to get. It's not a perfect system but it's the best the world has to offer. Just ask the Canadians who flock here for REAL health care or the Mexicans who flock here for REAL jobs... I heard more political propaganda watching the Emmy's than Terrible Ted has spouted in a lifetime. God Bless America.

[Tommy]

Clay and Chad,

Some days are better than others.
Good day - you get off work early, the wife gave you a special hug before work. You get out on the lake and catch a pile of crappie. On this day the world should go on forever.

A bad day. The wife is pissed you went fishing after work. You didn't speak before work. You work late and someone rides your tail all the way home waving there arms wildly in your rear view mirror. You get home and yes, the dog shat the floor. Then you see a bill that came in the mail, and someone has ben on the cell phone way too much.

We all have good ones and bad ones guys. Don't let the bad ones have you wishing for Jesus, OR YOU WILL MISS OUT ON YOUR ONE CHANCE TO LIVE HERE - NOW.

[Tommy]

Dr. Ralph,

Not the same money my friend.

I said I read Rand.

Are you familiar with the books I talked of?

I ALSO SAID ''MIDDLEGROUND'' Please do not misrepresent what I said. And I do not hate America, I just think it could use some tweaking.

[Chad Love]

Now that's a post I'll agree with...

[Tommy]

Dr. Ralph,

I also said nothing of taking the money out of campaigning. Just let those who run - run on equal ground.

The book ''Atlas Shrugged'' spoke of the ''motivation to perform'', at great length, and I agree and disagree. I just think we can narrow the margin in cases of those who WORK HARD.

[Tommy]

I am reading your posts now Chad.

Good stuff.

[Mike Diehl]

"The difference between a Democrat and Republican is that when a Democrat should be fired? They make them their leader! Go figure that one out?"

I thought the difference was that when a Republican should be fired they re-elect him. ;)

We agree about Hollywood being full of actors and puffed up people. But who on earth would mistake them for Official Party Spokesmen? For every nutjob Spike Lee or Alec Baldwin there's a fruitcake Pat Robertson or an Ann Coulter.

My concern about Hollywood's effort to influence politics only goes so far as to be interested when actors run for office. And in Senator Thompson's case that is not such a terrible thing. The rest of those Big Voices on the right wing and the left can go jump in a lake for all I care.

[Tommy]

Dr. Ralph,

I never thought I would say this. But your point was well taken and logical. I have already been there though. I just want to imagine a world where I can grow old and have a little time to enjoy the things I love before I check out - no matter where that ends up being.

[jstreet]

Clay Cooper wrote:
The good news is, the worse it gets the closer the end time is and Jesus is coming!

Clay, I can appreciate your whole Jesus is coming back thing, but I for one, don't think he is. Jesus was a man,and the bible was a book, written by people who thought the earth was flat.

Living your life in a moral manner is good for us all. I don't worry about the eternal payoff @ the end the way so many do because I don't think it exists.

And what in the world does any of this have to do with Nugent and microstamping?

[NobdySpecial]

They microstamp in hell. And Ted Nugent is the Devil.

[Clay Cooper]

jstreet

Welcome to America!

[Vince]

Does anybody out there reload handgun ammo? What happens when a case that has been microstamped is run through a gun the second, third....time?

[Dennis]

For those of you who think that brass stamping is a good idea have your heads in the sand! Sure, most of us are honest folks and so what if we have to pay $200 more for our guns because our brass won't end up at a crime scene, right? Or maybe it could. All a dirt bag has to do is visit your gun range and pick up your spent brass with your head stamping info and drop it at his or her next crime scene - after picking up their own brass of course. Mmmmm - now that doesn't sound like such a good idea, does it?

Besides, most criminals use stolen guns any way and the rightful owner of that gun will probably be prosecuted for not taking care of his firearms and/or not reporting it stolen in a timely manner! It is a lose/lose proposition for the good guys and a win/win for the other side!

[Mike M]

Aw hell! Ted's not so bad . I like the old boy. Anyone on our side for hunting and gun ownership is alright. Do you remember when black gun owners were raising hell about Zumbo's remarks about black rifles. Statements about how we should stick together instead of critizing each other, they apply here also. He made no threats. He just showed his dislike of these people. I have seen the famous of Hollywood show more disloyalty to our leaders & country than what Ted did. These are the same people who would gladly take your guns, but reserve special privilages for themselves. These same Hollywood types make their fortune playing soldiers, cops and other gun toting types, but they'll be damned if you get to own one. The microstamping is just one small step in the process of making guns less affordable and one step closer taking away gun owner rights.

[Dr. Ralph]

New worst case scenario: Bad guy picks up your brass at the range, reloads them and uses them in his old semi-auto that does not microstamp. Todd, will forensics still be laughing when chemical analysis of gunshot residue, ejection patterns etc.... all match your spent brass? Hope you have a good lawyer gentlemen.

[mr.b]

Clay, It's a fact the dems made us lose 'Nam? Now Iraq? What color is the sky in your world? Bush, with a republican congress, got us into the fiasco in Iraq, with no plan, and no exit stradegy. Hell, he has already stated that the war will outlive his presidency. Leaving this shit for someone else to clean up.Save your orations..........

[Clay Cooper]

mr.b

For a second I got the impression you could figure this out on your self until you started with the preprogrammed Democratic what to say and think. It’s obvious Sir you didn’t follow the Iraq closely enough. First of all, within a year of Iraq II, the bad guys started sending messages to each other that they will not prevail over the US led freedom force. This is the place you fail of the turnip truck! Once again, U.S. Media and the Democratic side played into the bad guys side just the same way as Nam. Mr. B, is it you getting older or you just lack the ability to think for yourself? I don’t like Bush myself. It’s better that Kerry and Gore any day!

[Clay Cooper]

A'Men BROTHER Mike M

[Clay Cooper]

Tell me one thing mr.b. Suppose you’re in a fight for your life and your best friend walks up and supports the criminal about to behead you?

[Fred SanFilipo]

Microstamping....cool idea. I would like to have my .45 microstamped with a smiley face and the phrase "have a nice day"

[Rocky Mtn Hunter]

Dr. RAlph: You chewed me up aNS PUT FOR talking Politics. Nothing I said is worse or equal to the junk on this UNCLE TED JUNK. Why buy a ticket to watch a complete Idiot show his A)__. Better spend that money for hunting/guns. Don;t worry about the Demos taking your gun, with the Mess MR W. is leaving us in, the next Pres. wan;t even think guns other than supply enough Guns and Ammo in Iraq for our troops.TEd what-ever is by far the worst spook the hunting world could ever have on their side.Sure glad I found out that Idiot is a Director on NRA, now my subscription has been canceled. So all you wood and string Ted lovers go to the stage and watch a idiot make another fool out of those who attend.

[Dr. Ralph]

Don't need a ticket, just pop "Cat Scratch Fever" in the CD. RMH, the Nuge has been to Iraq and entertained the troops himself more than any other performer. Word has it last time he was there with Toby Keith he had a .45 and 500 rounds... he told Toby the first 498 are for the rag heads the last two if we need them are for me and you.

[mr.b]

Yes Clay, a boozing, coke snorter like W was a better choice than the decorated war vet Kerry. I can't imagine how the press and the left manipulated you, the american people, and the election boards to re-electing him. Four years later, our men are still being killed. Three years after these "messages" were exchanged, "we" haven't prevailed. This is the Dem's fault? Pleez.............

[Jim Kiser]

Well folks while you all are watching Ted and his antics. Everyone missed the new Md. sate reg issued by the Gov. which says you now must sign over permission for the Sate police to peruse your medical files in order to buy a firearm.

mr.b never mind. Your having a liberal melt down. Thank you for proving my point Sir

[WA Mtnhunter]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Bob]

I am enraptured by all of the planning on this board to create "the perfect crime". In our imaginary scenario, we have criminals becoming gunsmiths to try to eliminate the multiple points of micro-engraving, going to firing ranges to scavenge spent brass, buying reloading equipment to reuse the brass, firing and refiring said spent brass to create multiple markings, and finally crawling around in the dark street to recover any casings left over.

I live in a major metropolitan area with more than it's share of gun crimes. (For credibility's sake, I am also a lifelong hunter and gun-owner) If there are any law enforcement types on this board, I would bet they might agree with the following things:

-A large percentage of gun crimes are not planned in advance, they result from an argument or a chance encounter
-While a criminal might own a gun, theres a good chance they don't have the knowledge or expertise that the average poster (or reader) of this board has
-A good number of gun crimes are committed by drug abusers (quite possibly while high)... not the kind of person who is acting rationally or is thinking things out enough to cover thier tracks.

I think the fact of the matter is, the average criminal is much more likely to be the kind of person who forgets thier wallet behind at the scene of the crime, than the one who has advanced planning and a rational mind on thier side.

[Ed J]

Micro stamping = registration.
Your name is on a list that is accessable by???

[Todd Lizotte]

Hello To All,

Once again, I am Todd the co-inventor of microstamping. I like the dialogue of this blog.

Mike M: Reload theory:

This is actually a good theory, however, when reloading you have to use a new primer, a cartrdige which is marked on the head stamp area, but with no central primer mark is suspect, even still, you also have to remember reloads are detectable by the change in the hardness of the cartridge due to thermal cycling. The manufacture of the cartridge involves a series of drawing of the brass and selective tapered hardening inorder to ensure that the headstamp area is the hardess and then the material has a graident as it extends to the flare or crimp area for the projectile.

In your scenario, it is possible, but the cartrdige will also have two seperate extractor and ejector marks .. as well as deformation due to the first firing.

Once again, the guy criminal has to know that the cartrdiges are mictrostamped, the breach, ejector and extractor marks are smaller than the primer, it is not easy to do without a 80X microscope with proper lighting. This criminal would also need to have specific knowledge of reloading and the equipment.

Ken Green from SAMMI gave a lecture on cartridge manufacturing at a National Academy Science meeting that I was inited to, when we were trying to derail ballistic imaging for all new firearms.

The foresnic scientist have ammo databases for this type of analysis and it is part of their normal investigative apporach to evidence.

Microstamping = registration:

The status quo stays the same. All the info stays with the manufacturer. As a matter of fact, in California, if you find the cartridge, the code on it tells you the manufacturer and an ID code which then requires law enforcement "ATF" to use the existing trace system.

I am not sure you are aware, but the ATF made a deal with the large firms years ago to pay for a system called Access2000, which most of them use. This system houses all the info on the firearms purchased and allows tracing of firearms to be done electronicly. That is something that exists today .. Microstamping does nothing except make it easier to identify a firearm by the cartrdige left at a crime scene without having to recover the firearm, but you still have to run it thrugh the trace system. No new database, no registration and everything stays the same.

Microstamping Price:

currently firearms have similar processes, for micromarking serial numbers under the grips. The price is inline with that technology. I agree, semi and inkjet are higher volumes, but the reality is the process is very fast. However, I understand your skepticism.

As for White Hat technology, I stand by that comment. The technology puts the focus on people who are engaged in illegal trafficking of firearms.

Best regards,
Todd

[Dr. Ralph]

Todd, Todd, Todd.. take two aspirin and I'll call you in the morning. Why not just post as Big Brother from now on?

As an Aerospace Structural Technician (retired) with in the know of metallurgy and High Power Rifle Competition, I have one thing to say about Microstamping. It’s a flat out joke! Anyone in aerospace and the operational maintenance of weapons would in fact agree! The Microstamp would g