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May 31, 2007

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Quote of the Day

“During my years of study on high velocity and killing power, I have come to one definite indisputable conclusion. Velocity plays the most important part in killing power.”—Roy Weatherby, “Killing Power,” The Gun Digest, 1951

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Comments

tom

Dave,

Based on that statement Roy is probably correct. He does not state what high velocity is nor the bullet selection or the game selection. Therefore it is an ambiguous statement.

If he would have went into more detail about bullet choice, a specific velocity, and a type of game it might be easier to argue this one.

Dr. Ralph

I think I'll grope my Wally-Weatherby today...

Mtnhunter

I "fondled" my "Ed" Weatherby on Wednesday at the range. I think I'll do the same on Sunday afternoon after a good cleaning. It needs to get dirty after that cleaning!

Dr. Ralph

Now I'm jealous.

Clay Cooper

Theirs three categories of rifle killing power

First: Large and heavy bullet such as the 45-70 leaving a massive wound channel

Second: Hypervelocity bullet such as the 22-250 leaving a small entry and high hydrostatic shock destroys soft tissue. A lung hit will turn the lungs into soup. It’s like a bomb going off.

Third: Combination of both. Big caliber and high velocity. Resulting in both large wound channel and hydrostatic shock destroys allot of soft tissue. Shot several jacket Rabbits with my 338 Win Mag with 225 grain bullets at 3000 fps before going to Alaska. I’ve shot hundreds of Jacks with a 300 Win Mag. Nothing blows them up more than something like the 338 Win Mag. 338 Win Mag on Caribou? It’s really over kill!

Sure be nice if they came out with a 257 WSM. 30 WSM necked down to 257. I read it nearly duplicates the 257 Weatherby Magnum

KJ

Let's say you are in the wilds of coastal Alaska, and an angry brown bear is coming at you with ill intent. You have the choice of two rifles: a .220 Swift or a .450 Marlin. The Swift cartridge (40 gr) leaves the muzzle at 4200 fps with 1566 ft/lbs of kinetic energy. The Marlin round (350 gr) leaves the muzzle at 2100 fps with 1720 ft/lbs of kinetic energy. Now, said bear is closing the distance between the two of you with rapid determination. Which rifle do you choose?

Clay Cooper


Ok KJ
You want to get smart

The 450 Marlin would be a better choice. Because you put the 220 Swift in the mix their smarty pants. I’ll take a M-16 A2 green tip round that’s a 62 grain FMJ with a steal penetrater and load it into the 220 Swift case. Even a Nosler 60 grain partition would work also. Give a head shot and down it comes. Have you seen what a M-16 A2 does to a Grizzly? I have, The Corporal from Fort Wainwright made a good one shot kill.

A charging Grizz? A 12 ga with 3 inch 2oz of #4 bird shot in the face works good to. I would Take the 444 Marlin loaded with a Hornady’s 265 grain at 2400fps. I do know what that does at close range. By the way I was in Alaska for 4 years. I prefer my 338 Win Mag loaded with a Nosler 250 grain Partition loaded at 2800 fps. Besides why carry a 450 Marlin when you can carry a 338 Win Mag.

What Say You! KJ

I have a new word I learned the other night watching Jeff Foxworthy. It’s for all you arm chair know it alls out there.

The word is urologist.

Urologist a bunch of Sissies!

Clay Cooper

By the way, why use a 40 grain in a 220 swift? I would use a 55 grain. A Nosler 55 grain solid base at 3800 fps works great on big mule deer. I've worn out 3 barrels in 22-250.

KJ

OK, Clay Cooper -

I chose the .220 Swift because the "Quote of the Day" concerns velocity, so the 40 grain Swift round makes sense - more sense than your M16 A2 green tip 62 grain FMJ steel penetrator. I chose the Marlin round because it's big and slow, and the "Quote of the Day" concerns, again, velocity. And you make my point - bigger, not necessarily faster, is preferred when nasty animals are approaching.

Sissies? Only a blowhard would make that assertion.

Mark

Clay, are you yarning us again? You got me really scratching my head now. I’ve met fellows who love spinning a good story. I enjoy hearing them. I enjoy reading your blogs, but in the back of my mind I sense some real yarning.

Where did you get 3k fps out of a 338 mag with a 225 bullet? How ‘bout giving the load data for this load for all of us to enjoy.

Where do you get off trying to kill a grizzly/brown bear with a 223, unless you were pretty stupid to pick a fight with something that big without being well prepared? Do you really believe this is acceptable? I’m baffled how you survived to make Retirement without terrifying yourself daily.

You say you were stationed in Alaska for a tour, but how much did you actually hunt? I hope you have something to back up some of the these reckless, glib statements I’ve been reading for these last few weeks. But then maybe I’m mis-reading things. I don’t have the sharp and singular mind I once sported.

Clay Cooper

My loading data for my Browning –Bolt 338 Win Mag. 225 3K load

Hornady 225
IMR 4350 72 grains
Federal 215 Magnum primer

About the 223 on grizz. The Corporal didn’t have anything else for protection when he shot it. Lucky perhaps. I think it was a hand from God!

And who in there right mind use a 40 grain in a 220 Swift. Only a stupid person would!
Fastest way I know to really burn the bullet out!

Clay Cooper

KJ

I prefer Big and fast.

Mark

I was stationed at Eleson AFB Ak.
Next stop out of my back yard is Russia

Clay Cooper

Mark

Go back and read about the bear (beer) hunter with the 375 H&H

Mark

Do you mean Eleison AFB? If this is the base, I think its 25-miles south of Fairbanks. If memory serves me it’s home to a fighter wing.

I’ve played some with a 338 Mag with a buddy of mine. I’m really a 35 Whelen man. If memory serves me right again 72-grains is an uncompressed load in this case. We stuffed 75-gr IMR 4350 [I’m pretty certain it was this powder since the guy bummed my can of 4350]. We had a chronograph, too. I think the best we got was 29k in a 24” barrel. I can’t recall pressure signs. His rifle was built on a 1909 Mauser.

I’m sorry, but I had trouble following your link on the 375 story. What I got is this guy with the 375 shot through three-caribou with one shot? I’m lost on what other point was being made.

I’ve had two 220 Swifts in my career and did considerable shooting and handloading with the cartridge. IMO the Swift is “The Varmint Cartridge”, even over and above the 22-250. However, a 220 Swift is no big game cartridge by in any generous imagination. …And no one owning a 220 Swift should really care about barrel life. It’s not a cartridge for the conservative meek,

Dr. Ralph

Far be it from me to disagree with anyone, especially someone with the vast knowledge and experience of Roy Weatherby, but I do not believe velocity plays the most important part in killing power. Roy DID have a line of ultra high velocity rifles and cartridges he was trying to sell after all. I have shot 3 deer with a .257 Wby Mag and they did not flip over in their tracks like a deer shot with a 12 gauge slug does. Of course high velocity is every one's friend when we're talking long distance... but a big heavy bullet will lay any animal down faster. Compare and contrast the .45 and 9mm.

Clay Cooper

Dr. Ralph

That’s is going to be as close as you can get, 45 ACP vs 9mm. Big bullets at high velocities will kill on both ends. The reason I like the 338 Win Mag, prior to going to Eielson AFB Ak in 86. I compared all the big bores. The 338 was at the end of the spectrum of long range shooting. It had a trajectory close to a 30-06 165 grain and I know I can handle the recoil. Anything larger such as the 375 H&H would drop like a rock past 250 yards. By the way Sir Mark, to answer the 375 H&H. The individual using a 375 H&H was nothing but a kid with a garden hose with a mindset of the same. Told him it was too much gun for him on the range because he couldn’t hit a pie plate standing at 50 yards. Taylor Mountain Alaska he wounded a Nice Bull and knocked down three caribou cows with one shot. He was using nosler partition bullets. There is a lot of stories of hunters hunting with 375 H&H. I would say over half said the big one was out of range and they’d wished they had a 338 or 340.


Clay Cooper

Mark

Maybe you’re thinking of IMR 7828 because it’s a real slow burning powder. 75 grains of IMR 4350 is way to hot and is defiantly an overload.

Clay Cooper

Dr. Ralph

Question sir, you shot 3 deer with a .257 Wby Mag and they did not flip over in their tracks. What kind of bullet did you use?

Clay Cooper

KJ

By the way, anyone stupid enough to use a 220 swift in Alaska as his or her primary rifle, deserves to be DIN DIN! I did carry a 22-250 on my ATV in scabbard bungee corded with my 338 Win Mag scabbard. Just 4 inches apart.

KJ

Clay, apparently you are having a hard time grasping the topic. The quote concerns velocity being of utmost importance in killing power. The topic is NOT "the best caliber for hunting bears in Alaska," or "the best primary firearm to use in Alaska." With all deference to Roy Weatherby (who created some amazing rifles and incredible cartridges) I disagree with his conclusion that "velocity plays the most important part in killing power." If velocity truly is the most important part of killing power, then a .220 Swift should be the ultimate killing cartridge because of its hypervelocity capabilities. So - for the sake of comparison (its my illustration so I get to choose) - I used the .450 Marlin, a big, heavy, slow round. If Weatherby's assertion is correct, the Swift round would be preferable. However, given a choice between the two, I'd choose the big, slow, heavy Marlin. I think most folks would.

My big game hunting these days is done mostly with a an old Fred Bear Kodiak recurve bow and ash arrows tipped with Magnus 2-blade 125 grain broadheads (total arrow weight: 555 grains). I have lots of buddies who shoot single-cam compounds and light arrows that chronograph at least twice the speed of my big, slow wooden arrows. I have to get a little closer, and I pass on a few more shots, but I kill as many as they do, usually getting better penetration. When I do use a firearm, it's a .30-06 or a 12 gauge slug.

I'm glad you're a magnificent shot. Personally, though, 700 yard shots at an animal don't impress me. To my way of thinking that really isn't hunting - it's shooting. 10 yard shots impress me. And big, heavy, even slow projectiles work well for the hunter.

Dr. Ralph

115 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. Used them last year but if I hunt with the Wally Weatherby this year I will use 117 grain rapid expanding round nose. Probably will go back to the Ruger #1 7X57 with 150 grain Norma bullets if I don't get a .22-250. The #1 needs a few more kills to catch up with my other guns. Of course if I find a large buck has been in my area I will take the Remington 30-06 just because I am so comfortable with it and it never seems to miss!


Clay Cooper

This is were you mist the boat. Roy Weatherby made cartridges in not only in deferent calibers, but with deferent bullets in that cartridge. If you going to use a hypervelocity bullet and you want to use it on big game. You construct the bullet so it will do the job without blowing up upon impact. You don’t use hollow points on grizzly?

I’ve gutted just about everything from rabbits to moose. A slow large caliber bullet will leave a large wound channel. But it doesn’t leave as much as a mess as a high velocity bullet of good construction. Blowing the lungs to mush and shattering bones. The game hemorrhages do to massive hydrostatic shock.

Clay Cooper

go getem Ralphy

Clay Cooper

Yo’Ralph

My pet 30-06 load, Hornady 190 grain soft point boat tail, military match case, 58 grains of IMR4831, Federal 215 magnum primer.

This is a bolt gun load only. PERIOD!

Crony out at 2837 fps

Clay Cooper

ps

beats the hell out of a 7mm Rem Mag
with a 175 grainer




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