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July 27, 2006

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Why Shooters Don’t Like Licenses

Advocates of tougher gun laws are unable to understand the horror that shooters feel when the word “license” comes up. After all, say the anti-gunners, aren’t drivers licensed? And pilots, and just about anyone who has anything to do with anything that moves? Well, here’s an example why we don’t like licensing, and it happened to a co-worker of mine who had a permit to keep two handguns in his home in New York City.

Mr. M, as we will call him, moved from one borough of New York to another, and as required by law sent in his application for a new license with the new address, along with a money order for $340. Time went by, and nothing happened. When Mr. M called the New York City Police Department, he was told that his permit had been sent to him. Then, after much back and forth, he was told that the permit application had been lost (but not, apparently, the $340 money order). And then he was told that since he had not notified the NYPD of his move, his permit was revoked.

Then followed a Kafka-esque back and forth with the NYPD, who advised Mr. M that since he didn’t have a permit for them, he had to surrender his guns or be arrested. So he did. And, pursuant to Title 38, Chapters 5 and 15 of the Rules of the City of New York, Mr. M requested a hearing, appealing the revocation of his license. He hired a lawyer to represent him and amazingly, the hearing officer found for him. This was on April 3, 2006.

Well, you say, the system works; the system is fair. Not quite. On May 10, a Mr. Thomas Prasso, who is Director (of what he does not say) wrote a letter to Mr. M that says:

“As a result of an administrative hearing held on April 3, 2006. Your license has been CANCELLED. A copy of the hearing report is enclosed.

“This determination concludes the Police Department’s review of this matter. You may appeal this determination by commencing an Article 78 proceeding in Supreme Court within four months of the date of this letter.”

And so Mr. M is out his two guns, which he will never see again, $340 for the money order, and $550 for the lawyer. If he is inclined to spend a lot more money and waste a lot more time, he can indeed pursue an Article 78. But what would you say his odds are of getting his license?
      
Do people go through this kind of s**t when they change the address on their automobile licenses? No, they do not.

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Comments

Matt

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" I'm not sure which part of that the antis have problems with. And I hate that idiotic comparison between cars and guns. Car ownership is NOT a right. Gun ownership IS. I feel sorry for your friend but in a place like New York, you have to expect that to happen. He really has three choices: 1) do what he did, 2) just sell his guns and get it over with, or 3) say f*** it and keep unregistered guns. I know which I would have done.

tom

It is not fair. In New Jersey just across the river if you move you have to get a new Firearms purchasers permit. In my town that takes 15 days. In some towns it can take up to a year. It is BS. Just recently in Jersey City they voted to only allow a person to purchase one Hand Gun a month. I am not a hand Gun nut but I am sure there are many people who would want excercise the right to bear arms and buy more than one. The right to bear arms does not specify how many. What is with these Nut Job council members who voted this in.

NYC is all screwed up, they take the guns from law abiding citizens and screw them. I think he should talk to the NRA and get some of their attorneys involved.

jstreet

Just think what might happen if Hillary Clinton wins the White House. I can't fathom the amount of crap hunters and shooters will have to endure if that shrew wins. Gun registration would be the least of our worries.
Jim

JA Demko

You know, the Hillary Clinton thing is getting tiresome. I'd rather slam my genitals in a cardoor than vote for her, but _realistically_she has zero chance of being elected president. The US electorate isn't "ready" to elect any woman to the Oval Office; certainly not one who carries as much animosity as Mrs. Clinton. Obsessing over what might happen if she is elected is about as productive as worrying about those shipping containers full of Chinese soldiers I was told are on our docks in California.
The Republicans are our "friends" in as much as they don't enact the loathesome restrictions. They let the Democrats do it. Then they say "well, we tried..." Other than the Clinton ban, which had a built in sunset, the laws never go away either because our "friends" in the GOP never repeal them. Think of all the hateful executive orders regarding guns. The President could undo any of them with a stroke of the pen; no need to involve the legislature at all. How many have been undone by a Republican president?

CA McDonough

Kudos for saying what everyone who loves to hunt and shoot already know. Unfortunately the idiots who vote these mega-idiots into office have the just plain wrong perception regarding guns (among other things)and they just keep multiplying. Everyone who finds hunting and shooting near and dear to thier heart needs to stay alert, politically active and work to change this perception.

Mark

I worked in NYS firearm laws and legislation for some six-years ‘till ’96 with/for some of the best organized conservationists in the state. I went to bat in a ten-county area for folks having a problem acquiring or with handgun licenses. As I recall there are some 60-counties in NYS with 60-different licensing officers [county judges] having 60 different spins on the same law. NYC is in its own world to boot.

DP, your poor friend got hit at the wrong time and in the wrong place with a NYC Mayor and his staff wanting career progression. I would certainly file an Article 78 Appeal and write a complaint to the NYS Office of Court Administration [the boogie men of the NYS Court System] even though many NYS handgun license holders are fearful to make too much fuss since a handgun license can be revoked for “any good reason”. However, your friend already lost his handguns, what’s the Powers-that-Be going to do now?

FYI—one of the greatest mysteries in NYS Handgun licensing was trying to figure out what criteria the individual counties used to decide the applications fees. The variation was incredible, as much as $200. Many folks simply couldn’t afford to apply for a handgun license. To bring this subject up in a gov’t meeting was like throwing a dead fox in a hen house.

Good luck to your friend.

Mike

Quite sickening (not to mention scarey) to say the least. A "Free" citizen has not only rights stolen but personal property as well. THAT is exactly what was done in this case, blatant THEFT of personal property. Seems to me that the officials should be put in prison for theft.

How is it our "representatives" can use our God given rights as toilet paper.....its high time ALL Americans stand up and slap our elected officials around so to speak.

When the powers that be have eradicated the 2nd what is to stop them from taking the 1st, the 4th,the 6th ammendments. A hint to all that read this. THAT is exactly what is happening, a total eradication of ALL our rights...in the name of "Security"

In the words of that great man Ben Franklin "those that would trade 1 essential liberty for any percieved security deserve neither liberty nor security"

We ALL need to get on the ball, horse, soap box and 'puter box and let them know in no uncertain terms that if this BS doesn't stop..we SHALL use the ballot box to get our point across.....God forbid we have to use our fail safe.................. a.k.a the ammo box.

Greg Russell

It`s extremely frightening to me to continue to hear the comments about how Ms. clinton can NEVER win the White House, blah blah blah blah. I hear the same chatter, that the united nations could NEVER cause us to lose our Second Amendment rights, what happened in Australia could NEVER happen in the US, and other assorted fairy-tales.

Yes, Ms. clinton could very well win the demon-cratic nomination for President, and she very well could win the white House. She sounds almost reasonable compared to howard dean, and she will pick up a lot of female as well as minority vote.

Probably more to the point though, any dem nominated, and even a few Republican possibles I`ve heard, are not only NOT going to protect our Second Amendment rights, but they will actively pursue taking them away. The mantra always goes the same: Gun owners are a dangerous sub-culture in America, indirectly and in many cases directly responsible for high crime, and firearm tragedies all across the country, and they need to be dealt with.

The apathy American gun owners are so famous for has absolutely got to stop, we HAVE to begin to take our foes seriously, and we have to identify exactly who our allies are, and take appropriate steps to create alliances with those who are our friends.

Wake up American gun owners before it`s too late.

Matt

I think the chances Hitlery Clinton will win the White House are EXTREMELY remote, but stranger things have happened. For some reason, this gun owner apathy seems to be a more regional thing. How else to explain the gun laws in states like New York or California vs. those in say, Virginia or Texas? Thats not to say gun owners everywhere don't share a lot of blame for the sorry state we are in now. As far the the UN (which I despise with every fiber of my being, and then some) goes, I seriously doubt American gun owners would stand for a UN disarmerment campaign. Having our own elected leeches strip us of our rights slowly is one thing, but having a foreign body do it all at once is quite another. Personally, I would love to see Koffi Annan try to round up our firearms because it might be just what this country needs to get our heads out of the clouds concerning the Second Amendment.

P.S. Yes, Bush has been far from a friend to American gun owners and I challange anyone here totting the NRA's one-party banner to name a single gun law he has helped destroy, a single American railroaded by the ATF he has pardoned, etc.

JA Demko

"It`s extremely frightening to me to continue to hear the comments about how Ms. clinton can NEVER win the White House, blah blah blah blah. I hear the same chatter, that the united nations could NEVER cause us to lose our Second Amendment rights, what happened in Australia could NEVER happen in the US, and other assorted fairy-tales."

First, Hillary Clinton has not (yet) even declared herself a candidate. On that account alone, you've begun pants-wetting too early. Secondly, the whole entire population of registered Republicans can be guaranteed to vote against her. Of the Democrats, she will enough votes from being anti-gun and from being a woman that she stands virtually no chance of victory. I can't stand the woman, but I will admit she is intelligent enough to realize that herself. If you insist on having something Hillary-related to obsess over, worry about which Democratic candidate she and Bill will endorse and stump for. Bill, particularly, is still much beloved.
As for the UN...are you on drugs? Maybe you should be. Name one single thing which the UN has ever successfully accomplished of a military nature that wasn't actually a US military venture. Has the UN ever successfully confiscated so much as a cap pistol? You just keep worrying about Hillary Clinton and blue helmets pal. While you fondle your M1A and dream about being a sniper for The Resistance, the Republicrats and Democans are busily chiselling away at the whole Bill of Rights.

Mike

MR. Demko

You are stageringly correct in your post....we have MUCH more to worry about than Hitlery Clintoon and that toothless nutless dog known as the United Nations.

We need to fear those elected officials in power RIGHT NOW!!

The ENTIRE B.O.R. is under seige....by the majority of our "Leaders" at least damn FEW seem to be on the side of "The Free Citizens of America"

Sorry to say....we have NO ONE to blame but ourselves....Voter apathy is to blame for this slipery slope we are sliding down.....NOW......the question is this.......how do we secure our footing before we drown.

Greg Russell

JA Demko-

No, I`m not on drugs, but thanks for asking.

Your assertion that Ms. clinton could not possibly win the white House is fools gold, if you can remember, if not for the brilliance of the Founding Fathers implementation of the Electoral College, Al Gore would have won the White House in the election against GW. Do you REALLY have much faith in the American people? And IF you`ll note, I DID point out, that if not Ms. clinton, then whomever the dems nominate, as well as a handful of those calling themselves Republications, will be trouble for America’s gun owners.

To the united nations, they’ve proven themselves to be corrupt, self-serving and mostly ineffective, however-there are several nations who are seriously intent on making something come of this, so called, civilian ban on small arms and light weapons. Add to that, the support of Soros and all the other gun grabbers, and you`re an idiot to ignore what could potentially come of this. You sir, are a prime example of the apathy that ALLOWS the Bill of Rights to be assaulted, that and your refusal to recognize what formidable foes we face, because YOU have decided they really aren’t of any consequence.

As was pointed out, many areas of the country enjoy a resurgence of Second Amendment benefits, and NRA is even on the offensive, rather than simply reacting to attacks. There are however, other areas of the country in which Second Amendment rights are as restricted and as under attack as ever before. Chicago comes immediately to mind of a spot that has ridiculous restrictions and bans on firearms, yet continues to have terrible crime. And if you happen to be a citizen of that area, tied down to a job that you can`t leave, you`re suffering, and your apathetic brethren are telling you how silly you are to complain, and think that we could EVER have firearm issues in the US.

Your arrogant remarks notwithstanding, there is MUCH that gun owners need to be knowledgeable of, have a healthy respect for, and be prepared to battle, whether YOU see the need or not. Unfortunately, as it sounds like we’ve been doing all along, we’ll continue to carry your weight as we stand up against these very real threats.

Lastly, I`m NOT your pal, as I surround myself with men who have substance and are busy working to make a difference for Second Amendment rights, NOT people who hammer out cute sounding rhetoric on their keyboard before putting their heads right back into the sand…… or perhaps UP somewhere.

Rob

Greetings all,

Very good dialogue we've got going here.

The dangerous thing about Hillary is that she has been moving toward the center on some issues lately. Next to her, all of the other likely democratic nominees seem like far left-nuts to the rest of the country. Plus, in order to compete with Hillary, they will have to run even further left in the democratic primary in order to get the Deaniatic web money they'll require to defeat her. This will make her look like the moderate democratic candidate to many people, which will give her a serious leg up in the general election should she win the nomination. She'll also have Bill to stump for her, which is an asset no one should take lightly. Depending what happens over the next year and a half, the country may vote democrat simply for a change in direction due to disatisfaction with Iraq dragging out. Hence, the threat is more real then some here believe. Besides, taking a look at the other likely democratic front runners, are any of them better then Hillary for gun owners? No. So how is Hillary's defeat particularly consoling? Do any of you think you'll find a friend in Kerry, Edwards, Feingold, which others?

As for Bush not being a friend to gun owners, did his attorney general not issue a statement which clearly supported the citizenry's right to keep and bare arms? Yes, Mr. Ashcroft, Bush's first attorney general, did. This reversed Janet Reno's previously established position at the Justice Dept. Mr. Bush also signed the Lawful Commerce In Firearms Act which ended suits against gun manufactures, not withstanding a few arrogant judges who have ignored the law like the infamous Judge Weinstein. Do any of you believe Mr. Clinton would have done any of this? Do you think any presumptive democratic nominee in 2008 would do this?

When it comes to Mr. Bush, what we should be focused on is the earlier referenced security measures, embodied in the Patriot Act, that can be perverted to dangerously compromise a multitude of rights guarunteed in the BOR. The Ben Franklin quote is one we should all paste on our workshop walls.

As for the U.N., that sad body should not be so easily dismissed out of hand. They are an obvious failure militarily, but are capable of much other types of evil. There are many, many international supporters of their Ban The Trade In Small Arms bill. These international supporters, George Soros is one example, have proven capable of dumping tons of cash into the coffers of anti-gun American polititions and organizations like the Brady group. This makes them an expensive group to fight. The level of corruption in the U.N. alone, as proven with the oil for food scandal, should make it obvious what we're dealing with. We can argue about Saddam and terrorism all day, but one point is clear: U.N. corruption allowed his regime to be proped up for many years. The same could conceivably happen with other regimes that sponsor, or may have sponsored terrorism. This affects us because fear of terrorists is what leads us to things like the Patriot Act and the dangers to consitutional liberty referenced by earlier posters. We must look at the big picture and how various organizations and events intersect to have an effect on us as gun owners that is not always obvious.

Finally, please stop with the NRA bashing. I know, I know, we all tire of their endless quests for more donations of our hard earned cash. Neverthless, their strong presence and defined organization will prove crucial to fighting infringements on our 2nd amendment rights as it has in the past. We are unarguably stronger with them then without them and it is just irrational to maintain otherwise.

Rob

Greg,

Nice post, a little hard, but it looks like we hit the same points and probably posted at the same time.

JA Demko

"men of substance?" What does that men? You have a crate of MRE's and a couple thousand rounds of Wolf ammo in the basement? You read Fred in Shotgun News? Here's a few questions for you: Who are your ocal politicos and what are their stances on gun control? Same thing at the state level? What, exactly, did Ashcroft paying lip service do to advance the gun rights cause, other than give you a warm fuzzy feeling? Do you remember what Mr. Bush said he would do if a renewal of the gun ban reached his desk? The Democrats are no friends of liberty and neither are their cronies in the GOP. The parasites in office right now are the ones who need to be the target of pressure. The parasites in the so-called right are gleefully rubbing their hands together because they know you'll vote for whatever bloodsucker they put forward just because he isn't Hillary Clinton. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if the whole "Hillary for President" meme is the work of the GOP. Hell, they've got you stampeded.
The UN disarming the US remains about as much of a credible threat as Monaco doing so. The only way the N is going to have any effect on the US_at all_ is if the parasites in office right now sign treaties doing so. Watch the parasites, not the UN.

Greg Russell

Rob-agreed, perhaps a little hard, but SOMETHING has to happen to wake people out of the fog they appear to be in. We`re facing serious realities, that will take us to a point of no return, and it`s imperative that we understand that once lost, many freedoms won`t be won back.

Dennis Bender

Thanks Dave for your frank and honest opinions. I am a subscriber to the magazine and look for your column first. I am now disabled and would like to continue to hunt whitetails with a handgun. I can only use my strong side, the right. What is the least capable handgun cartridge that is necessary for whitetail and do you have a preference in handguns. I am more than adequate with a Ruger single-six for small game. I would not expect to take a shot beyond 50 yards. Thanks for the advice.

Matt

I don't give a damn if Ashcroft DID state the overobvious when he said the Second Amendment was an individual right. I don't give a damn what ANY politician say because they are ALL liars. I care about what they DO. Ashcroft and the Justice Dept. and all the rest have not made gun-owner's lives any easier. Tell the ATF to know it off, executive order away as many federal gun laws as possible, and THEN I'll believe Bush is working in our best interest. The Lawful Commerce Act is about the closest one can get to a gun-friendly law Bush passed but most of the credit for that goes to Conress. The fact is Dubya has don't DICK for gun-owners in general and even less for hunters in particular and I'm sick of the NRA endorsing these clowns just because they run on the GOP ticket.

P.S. On a slightly sunnier note, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Allen gets the GOP nomination because unless he has some skeleton in his closet I don't know about, he is one of the few politicians I would trust enough to vote for.

Greg Russell

Not sure what you expect Matt-this administration has done some good things for us, and granted, we`d always like more, but it`s a far cry from the clinton administration.

Good luck finding someone you`re satisfied with.

Mike

Mr. Petzal;
Thanks for the topic for us to bash about.

To the rest......Let us TRY and come together.....this discourse goes to show just how VERY divided we as a nation truly are......even united by the common cause of our heritage (Hunting) and the common fear (our losing our 2nd and other rights) we bash and beat on each other.

Scarey at best!!

1 more thought for us all to ponder........we CAN have more than the GOP or the Dems in power......we HAVE choices......IF we choose to!!

We MUST NOT be blinded by partisanship...PERIOD

Such blindness has brought us to this juncture....Reno did us NO favors.........nor has Ashcroft. They ALL go against us....they ALL have found a way to divide even us TRUE Americans...Those that understand and love our AMERICAN heritage.Let us all give credence to OTHER parties. The libertarians and constitutionalists come to mind. The GOP and Democratic parties profit from such devisivness. Let us all stop PAYING this heavy toll and ASSURE our great nation survives intact for our children and grandchildren.

Just another rambling thought from Mike. Thanks for your time

Mark

Agree on things getting sidetracked.

It's baffling what Hillary Clinton and the UN has to do with a 100-year old state law a politico misread and used to take away some poor man's handguns.

Focus, Boys! Focus!

Matt

Greg, Bush is certainly better than Clinton (pretty much anyone would have been) but if you can please tell me one real thing Bush has done for gun owners in the past six years besides being better than Clinton, I would like to hear it. Whether it is guns, illegal immigration, the size of the federal government, spending, whatever, it is time for the Republican die-hards to wake up and relize Bush and his cronies are NOT conservatives, and they do NOT have our best interests in mind.

Gary

Very interesting comments and well thought out too. Can you think of any other nation in the history of humankind in which we could have such a free exchange of ideas? I can not. Anyhow, I ask everyone who thinks that Hillary does not have a chance at winning, to either understand or remember that she and her husband did NOT believe they would win the Presidency until the second time they tried. When Bill won snap out of the gate on the first go - they were all stunned and not ready. Can you immagine, in your worst nightmare, what she would do now that she has been the President twice already? She lies, panders, and is not to be trusted. Now, suddendly, she has religion - is in favor of the military - will not touch the subject of the 2ed Amendment - is distancing herself from her radical friends in Hollywood. Gee, I wonder why? Gee, I wonder what she has planned for her "subjects" once elected? Gee, I hope I never find out. With that in mind, I hope the Republicans find a person ( man woman, I don't care) who can handle the job and get this country back on track.

Greg Russell

Matt-
Are you kidding me? It`s already been stated that the Bush Administration was key in getting legislation passed protecting gun manufacturers from senseless lawsuits from the antis’, as well as Ashcroft stating the Administration’s stance, (and rightfully so), that the Second Amendment IS an individual one, NOT a collective one.

And I disagree that Bush is not a friend and that he doesn`t have our best interests at heart. I don`t agree with everything Bush has done or would like to do, but I do believe that, 1) Bush is a Christian, (hugely important to me), 2) Bush is a friend to gun owners, 3) Bush has benefited the working man, (via tax cuts), 4) Bush has looked out for the country’s welfare, 5) Bush is hated intensely by many people, (I believe because he IS a Christian), I approve strongly with Bush when he told the world that “you`re either with us or against us”, and I LOVE the fact that he does NOT consult the latest polls before deciding what position he’ll take concerning any issue. 6) I think he`s great if for no other reason than the fact that michael moore doesn`t like him.

I do NOT agree with the Bush backed, so called Patriot Act because it goes too far in trampling on personal liberties, (or COULD do so), I do NOT like the Bush environmental policies, (or lack thereof), and don`t understand where they`re coming from.

All in all, if you consider everything the country has been through in Bush’s Presidency, he has done a tremendous job-the economy is reasonably robust, no more attacks have occurred on US soil, and gun owners HAVE benefited. There are many, many NRA initiatives that have become law and are benefiting gun owners such as Castle Doctrine laws passed all across the country, new areas passing Concealed Carry laws, my home state of Indiana recently implemented a new Life Time Concealed Carry permit, the first state in the Union to offer such a permit.

Again, I don`t agree with EVERY move this administration has made, but overall, I`m happy with what he has done for the country, the economy and gun owners. And as I`ve said many times, there are many issues I have an interest in, in the political arena, but if I must choose only one issue to base my choice of a party or candidate on, it WILL be the Second Amendment EVERY time.

JA Demko

Good for you. Lots of folks were happy with Nixon, too. Bush spends like a drunken sailor, lies like a cheap rug, and panders like a crack whore to his cronies in comapanies like Haliburton. His Christianity is of no importance to me one way or the other save when his publicists tell him it's time to kiss a little fundie ass for the sake of the poll numbers.
The Dems and a Reps have a sweet racket going here. Each side has their membership trained to believe that they must vote for X (their candidate) because_if nothing else_X isn't Y (the other party's candidate. Whether X or Y wins, the same group of fatcats profit. Here's something to think about GWB and John Kerry had far more in common with each other than either of them did with you. Neither of them were as worried about your guns as they were about keeping their rich friends happy.




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